No Bonking Here

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Zoof

New Member
Location
Manchester
Thanks for all the info; but does anybody know?
When you have depleted glycogen levels down to 20% and then eaten.
What's the norm for recovery?
Mine seems to be around 4 hours at best.
If I misjudge it, I can walk in, but not ride at all, it's a weird feeling.

Also when we eat a big breakfast, will some of the food be allocated for fat.
If so, will it be better to eat small amounts at regular intervals
 

yello

Guest
That is someone really trying to lose weight and he should be held up as an example to others.

Of course, there are examples of calorie counting working. I would not for a moment suggest otherwise but neither do I dismiss the genuine efforts made by many others to loose weight. I would never suggest that they are simply not exercising hard enough, nor simply eating too much. I do think there's something more to it. Don't ask me what because I have no idea. I have this notion - call it a gut feel if you like! - that with a little more knowledge someone could develop a more personalised, or optimised if you will, weight loss program.

In short, I think there's probably a more informed approach to loosing weight than making yourself suffer.
 

Greenbank

Über Member
Fair enough, I just grabbed some numbers from the pages and played about with them.

The point I was trying to make was more that a considerable portion of the calories expended during exercise will come from the glycogen stores, which *HAVE* to be replaced by eating. You can't run your glycogen stores in deficit somehow and hope you'll lose weight. I should have stopped there. ;)
 

italiafirenze

World's Greatest Spy
Location
Blackpool
In short, I think there's probably a more informed approach to loosing weight than making yourself suffer.


If there were we would probably have found it by now and we'd all be doing it.

I know a lot of people are looking for a magic bullet or easy way, not just in weight loss but in training and making money and all sorts of things, but there are no shortcuts.

Losing weight is hard. You can probably do it in relative comfort over a very very long timescale but those subtle, hard to see the difference approaches don't seem to stick with people.
 

ColinJ

Puzzle game procrastinator!
Thanks for all the info; but does anybody know?
When you have depleted glycogen levels down to 20% and then eaten.
What's the norm for recovery?
Mine seems to be around 4 hours at best.
If I misjudge it, I can walk in, but not ride at all, it's a weird feeling.
I once bonked so badly that I wasn't even able to figure out how to walk my bike across a junction to tell my riding partner why I was walking!

He came back across and got me a can of Coke and a couple of sandwiches from a nearby shop. Coke is a pretty quick sugar and caffeine hit and that cleared my head in about 10 minutes. We rode on slowly but it was about 45 minutes before I really started to get my strength back.

For quick bonk recovery, you want easily digestible carbs. There isn't much point in eating a whacking great big steak which will take many hours to digest!

Pennine Paul bonked pretty badly on a recent forum ride. His legs were completely shot and we needed to get him to the cafe stop a few miles down the road. Steve H gave him a gel which got him going again, at least enough to limp round to the cafe!

Also when we eat a big breakfast, will some of the food be allocated for fat.
If so, will it be better to eat small amounts at regular intervals
People come up with all sorts of theories. As far as I'm concerned though, a fairly big breakfast is a good idea because that is what is going to fuel your day and it is a long time since your previous meal. Do the 'little and often' thing after that to keep yourself topped up.
 

italiafirenze

World's Greatest Spy
Location
Blackpool
As far as I'm concerned though, a fairly big breakfast is a good idea because that is what is going to fuel your day and it is a long time since your previous meal. Do the 'little and often' thing after that to keep yourself topped up.

I think that is the received wisdom. On waking there is very little glycogen remaining in the liver, so your breakfast helps to fill that and give you the energy you need to get started. There should be little fat stored as the fuel is required immediately. The small meals help to keep you satiated and prevent over-eating in one sitting.
 

Glover Fan

Well-Known Member
Added to that, I've always been interested in WHEN we loose weight. For example, my weight after a ride is pretty much the same as before it - allowing for dehydration. But it's on the ride that I burn the calories, so burning calories wouldn't appear to lead to immediate weight loss. It's the following morning that I'll see any weight loss... yet if there's any time of day that my rate of calorie burn is at it's lowest then wouldn't it be when I'm inactive, i.e. asleep? Unless, of course, I'm a sleep marathon runner!
You'd be surprised at how many calories you burn in your sleep. Think of sleep as your body repair zone, whilst your conscious mind is completely asleep, your subconscious is busy prepping you for the day ahead.

As to when you loose weight, I've always believed that provided you have worked hard enough you will continue burning a higher than normal amount of calories for up to 48 hours afterwards.

After a very hard long 100 miles last sunday in the pouring rain, I had a massive carvery and dessert. Got home and I was still starving.

The next day I was like an animal. I was grazing all day, my hunger was insatiable. This can only be because my body was recovering from the day before and repairing the muscles that were aching. So whilst topping up your muscles glycogen stores, your food is IMO and it isn't based on fact is fuelling your bodies automatic repair system so to speak.
 

yello

Guest
You'd be surprised at how many calories you burn in your sleep.

Well, I wouldn't actually! It was kind of my point, albeit made in a reverse sort of a way.

That is, what we take as obvious isn't really if we think about it. We assume that calorie burn = weight loss, no middle man as it were. If that were the case you'd expect to get off the bike, having burnt x thousand calories, and see some kind of directly proportional weight loss. But you don't. There's some kind of time lag involved. The weight loss occurs after the big burn, not at the same time. There's some other process(es) involved and I reckon you're right... it's happening in the hours/days after the exercise.
 

Zoof

New Member
Location
Manchester
I once bonked so badly that I wasn't even able to figure out how to walk my bike across a junction to tell my riding partner why I was walking!

Welcome to the club Colin hi italiafirenze

I thing you are right in general, but I have a slight problem; I'm hypoglycaemic. This is a big subject so cannot dwell on it now.
White Sugar decisively lowers my Glycogen levels, enough, to bonk me hard; one small spoonful is enough.
(This condition also makes it very difficult for me to lose weight)
So, I have to go for carb at 50% G I index; in a sort of just in time policy.

Just done a 260 mile ride, to lose weight on this policy, but came off hard hard.
Had to spend 5 days in intensify own care, in Caernarfon, (no cattle drive had come in so it was peaceful)
Came back exactly same weight as I left, may try again Monday.
Cheers Zoof
 

ColinJ

Puzzle game procrastinator!
I thing you are right in general, but I have a slight problem; I'm hypoglycaemic. This is a big subject so cannot dwell on it now.
White Sugar decisively lowers my Glycogen levels, enough, to bonk me hard; one small spoonful is enough.
(This condition also makes it very difficult for me to lose weight)
So, I have to go for carb at 50% G I index; in a sort of just in time policy.
Ah, I can see that makes things a lot more complicated for you!

I have a friend who suffers from the same condition[sup]1[/sup]. She needs to be grazing the whole time. If she goes a few hours without food she gets really shaky.

We got lost in a pretty remote Scottish Glen once and she eventually ran out of food. She ended up staggering on foot while I had to ride my bike forward, put it down, run back for her bike, take it up to mine, and so on for 4 hours until we found our way back to a road. She just made it to a hotel before collapsing but she was okay after eating there for an hour! We haven't made that mistake again ... :whistle:

[sup]1 [/sup]Reading about the subject just now, she might actually suffer from Idiopathic Postprandial Syndrome. I'll ask her if she has had the tests next time I speak to her.
 

italiafirenze

World's Greatest Spy
Location
Blackpool
Follow up to earlier post;
I checked with Golden Cheetah and I can do between 300 and 800 kJ of work per hour; depending on intensity.

If I were a super efficient pro (i'm not) that would be a roughly equal number of calories consumed. As it is I'm probably using more calories than the amount of work done; maybe up to 30% more.
 

Zoof

New Member
Location
Manchester
I have a friend who suffers from the same condition[sup]1[/sup].
Hi ColinJ man of action you certainly know how to jemmy open Pandora's box. I have got some new info on your friend's condition, and it may of interest to other members.

But need time; so, will get back to you tomorrow cheers Zoof
 

Zoof

New Member
Location
Manchester
I have a friend who suffers from the same condition[sup]1[/sup]. She needs to be grazing the whole time. If she goes a few hours without food she gets really shaky.


That’s a bad situation to be in, you being the fit one, and not sure what to do.
This may help.

This subject is very very complex, so, this is quick rule of thumb assessment of one small part.
All the your cells in the body need glycogen (blood glucose) to do work, or they just die.
When you haven’t eaten for 6 hours or so, the blood just flat lines, at or about level 4
At levels above 9 glycogen is toxic, and destroys proteins in the body, this will kill with time.

So,the body must keep the level of glycogen within these two parameters at all times.
Look on the cells, as little cars that have to top up with fuel at regular intervals.
We eat glycogen begins to be released into the blood.
The body monitors this and begins to release insulin.
This is vital it helps the cell-wall to open up and so absorb the glycogen.
The ideal is, a slow rate of increase; then a peak; then a fall at the same rate; over two hours.
Then the liver extracts the surplus insulin from the blood, job done.

When thing go wrong; this can happen in young and old,
Insulin resistance: the same thing happens but the cell wall's don't open.
This is a delay, from 15 mins to 4 hours.

Now this is where your friend comes in.
New research has found that just a bad nights sleep.
Can cause a delay of up to two hours.
This may explain when a top athlete “has a bad day”

The result is, the body has a panic attack, releases far to much insulin, and other chemicals.
Now you have been hit with a double wammy, high insulin and glycogen levels.
This affects you thinking and coordination; next the cell walls open suddenly causing a big fall.
Panic again 6 adrenalines are released to stop the fall, now you go into an oscillation, of low and high glycogen levels.
This is why you feel like shoot, best way to deal with it is to lay down, don’t eat (just have a nibble) and drink lots of water.
For two hours your heart may beat like a slow sledge hammer, don’t panic it's all good fun.
It may take 8 to 12 hour for recovery so best call it a day.
This is why I always recommend taking a sleeping bag and small light tent when going into the wilds.
Because it's better to live were you are, than die attempting to get out.
Best if you do it this way because next day after breakfast you will be OK to ride all day.

Now my problem; the condition go’s back to when I was kid, and has a big environmental input.
I always felt better after a good ride, so I put myself on regular constant training, mainly swimming during the winter
I still can still swim 2 miles on 3 toasts, being just a bit blistered at the end.

HCA is Hydroxycitric Acid is used to lose weight, so I am going to run an experiment.
I will see if it can stabilise my glycogen levels for longer????
Will let you know the result Zoof.
 

Zoof

New Member
Location
Manchester
Bonking banished in Buxton



Having read all the info, on Wednesday I put it into practise on a regular run
from Buxton to Ashbourne and back; vie the Tissington trail. around 40 miles
This route seems to be my nemesis for some reason, so it was a good test.

Guestimate at a 2000 kcal run, (for me) started with 800 kcal for breakfast,
with evenly spaced out packets of 400 kcal (all food within the mid G I range, to give a good slow burn)
I usually smash on the last hill by the quarry, then it's just; how do I roll the dead donkey home.
This time I got onto camp tired but with very good legs,and that’s against a cold strong headwind.
(god it was cold gloves weather: then on Monday I had 36.1 C; I think the weathers Bonked)

Consumed 300 kcal in tent just to top up, then lay down for 2 hours.
Got up great not at all tired, ready to go round again: anybody for tennis Zoof.
 

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