New Bromptons vs old(er)

[rogerzilla]

It was the introduction of the BWR + 2 speed change that convinced me to upgrade my L5, I hadn‘t really been that aware of the other changes at the time so I was delighted to discover them! I didn’t like the matt finish but it has grown on me. My old one was red with black extremities, my new one black with red extremities.

The old SRAM 6-speed has far closer ratios and I like it better, but spares are getting difficult for SRAM hubs now, and they do need attention more often than do SA hubs. The big bearing races are poorly sealed, their ball cages wear out and no longer retain balls (loose balls are not a good option in this instance), and axle keys easily snap.

 

[berlinonaut]

SRAM hubs (...) do need attention more often than do SA hubs. The big bearing races are poorly sealed, their ball cages wear out and no longer retain balls (loose balls are not a good option in this instance), and axle keys easily snap.

Once more you do, as with many other things Brompton, seem to suffer from very exotic problems that almost no one else suffers from and clearly not in combination or to that extend. As the S/A 3-speed hubs the Sachs/SRAM hubs have been a construction that is more or less around 100 years old and pretty much bomb proof. There are probably millions of them in service and barely ever somebody has issues with it. I've personally ridden the Sachs Torpedo (which is basically the same hub) for around 20 years an my main bikes and never had any issue with it. After that I still had (and have) Torpedos, Sachs 3*7 and SRAM 3-speed hubs (but did not use them on a daily basis) and guess what: I never had any issues with them. So you really seem to attract bad lack as barely anyone else does...
If you want to dive deeper into these hubs this is a good starting point (in German): https://scheunenfun.de/getriebenaben.htm and https://scheunenfun.de/explosionszeichnung.htm

 

[rogerzilla]

No, it's because people never service them and assume the gummed-up feel is normal, or do a very low mileage.

The axle keys are more likely to snap if the gears are changed down when stationary, but can go at any time. It immobilises the bike if it happens. The hole is too near the edges of the key.

 

[pjstock]

I am selling a LIke New 1997 L5 and some people who have seen my ad have chimed in and commented that mine is an "older" model and added that Brompton has made many important improvments over the years.
But i've been reviewing the "New" Brompton models and I am underwhelmed.

Many of the "improvements" are small accessories or tweaks : a bell, redesigned brake levers, magnetic bottle rack...

But the drivetrain changes sound like a disaster.

If I am deciphering things correctly Bromptons now come in four "Speed" setups: a 3S IGH, 2S & 4S which (must have) only a short freehub and special rear derailleur (RD) and 6S which uses both.
(Though there might also be a single speed version. We'll just ignore that)

Now, for the 2S and 4S does anyone really want to use Brompton "proprietary" components?
If you break down in the middle of nowhere, you are stuck. I guessing you cannot just roll into a bike shop and swap on standard Shimano parts.

And the 6S IGH & RD combo would seems to wipe out the advantages of both (IGH: simplicity, robustness and low maintenance; RD: light weight). You get the extra weight of the IGH plus the fiddliness/fragility of the RD system.
Plus you have to manage two shifters.
watch this video about the "new" gearing system. the 6 speed setup (at 1 m 30 secs) also seems insanely complicated.

View: https://youtu.be/2ZFyQeKZ3Zo


Plus how distinct are those 6S? How smooth are the jumps? Are you really only getting like four distinct speeds?

These so-called "improvements" make a simple non-proprietary (industry standard Sturmey Archer) Sprinter 5S IGH sound pretty appealing, even if 25 years old.

 

[berlinonaut]

I am selling a LIke New 1997 L5 and some people who have seen my ad have chimed in and commented that mine is an "older" model and added that Brompton has made many important improvments over the years.

So what's the problem? The bike you are selling is more than 25 years old, so it is fair to say it would be an "older model" and yes indeed: Brompton has made many improvements over these 25 years.

But i've been reviewing the "New" Brompton models and I am underwhelmed.

Many of the "improvements" are small accessories or tweaks : a bell, redesigned brake levers, magnetic bottle rack...

Well, and a frame that does not brake, to name the obvious. Along with a gazillion of other improvements, many of them small - but they add up massively:
https://bromptonauten.cc/threads/brompton-modellgeschichte-und-aenderungen-seit-1992.255/

Objectively, a 25 year old Brompton is very very dated and modern ones are lightyears ahead.

But the drivetrain changes sound like a disaster.

Well the sprinter on your bike can be a somewhat nice hub but it is fragile, very sensitive in terms of adjustment and not overly eficcient. So possibly not the best position to rant about other gearing options...

As you want to sell the bike anyway: What's the problem? Are people not willing to pay what you want for it? If that's the case you may have set the price to high. It does not matter what you think about newer Bromptons - what matters is what potential buyers think about 25 year old Bromptons. And what alternative model year bikes they could buy for the price you want.
Personally, I would not buy a MK2 pre 2000 like your's if I could afford something newer. And even less would I buy one for the prices that some sellers want where for the same kind of money I could get one that is 10 or 15 years younger.

 

[gom]

Recently I reluctantly replaced my 1999 T5 with a 2023 “M6R” and I have to say it does feel like a better bike. I feel I’m betraying my old friend, but it’s true. Difficult to pin down the differences, but things just feel crisper/sharper/whatever.

Six-speed shifting is certainly odd to start with, but you get the hang of it quite quickly. And yes it is 6 evenly spaced gears. One would almost think Brompton know what they are doing.

 

[404 Not Found Anywhere]

Well, as the OP I can say that going from a 90s L5 to a 2009 S6L was like night and day. I guess you have to take this on faith, but it's a much more rigid and together machine, and for me at least the longer frame made a big difference to both comfort and stability.

In terms of gearing - I never liked the SA 5 speed, it seemed to gobble up all my effort in 1st gear to no benefit. The BWR 3 speed plus 2 speed derailleur does superficially seem the "worst of both worlds" but in practice I have found it far better than the 5 speed. There's little energy loss in any gear, the gears themselves are very evenly spaced, and the 2 speed derailleur makes minimal weight gain (which I suspect is offset elsewhere in any case).

My original post was about whether it was worth going from a 2009 flat bar to a new M-bar (I don't bend in the middle as well as I used to 14 years ago sadly). In the end I made some carefully selected changes which were all well worth it - mid rise JK handlebars to bring the height up to "M-bar" level, new integrated brake and shifter levers which make the double shift gearing far easier to use (and don't rattle!). And I've still got the same old friend rather than discarding my Brompton for a younger model.

If there's a Brompton Dock anywhere near you I'd suggest hiring one out (admittedly it will only be a 3 speed) and I suspect that will help your decision making. I was lucky when I sold my L5 to sell it for as much as I bought it for, but I don't think that will hold nowadays.

 

[Gunk]

I’ve owned both an upgraded 1995 T3 and now have an upgraded 2011 M3L, the older models have a shorter wheelbase, chrome rims and single pivot brakes, they are charming, but the newer models are just far better to ride, quieter, smoother and far less twitchy.

My 2011 M3L is a keeper, lovely bike to ride.

1995

2011

 

[mitchibob]

I’ve owned both an upgraded 1995 T3 and now have an upgraded 2011 M3L, the older models have a shorter wheelbase, chrome rims and single pivot brakes, they are charming, but the newer models are just far better to ride, quieter, smoother and far less twitchy.

My 2011 M3L is a keeper, lovely bike to ride.

Interesting. Your bikes look great. Had to look hard to see the shorter wheelbase. I'm not sure what age the bromptonbikehire ones I used for a few months were, but after buying my M2L in 2016 was a lightweight upgrade, and the 2018 M6E was a different step up, especially after adding superfirm suspension and titanium seatpost, but there were little tweaks that definitely made the 2018 a better bike (my favourite). Brakes, compared to bikes I'd ridden 25 years previously just seemed amazing, although, now, feel iffy if the wet compared to disk brakes, but still, amazing compared to my youth.

 

[brommieinkorea]

I am selling a LIke New 1997 L5 and some people who have seen my ad have chimed in and commented that mine is an "older" model and added that Brompton has made many important improvments over the years.
But i've been reviewing the "New" Brompton models and I am underwhelmed.

Many of the "improvements" are small accessories or tweaks : a bell, redesigned brake levers, magnetic bottle rack...

But the drivetrain changes sound like a disaster.

If I am deciphering things correctly Bromptons now come in four "Speed" setups: a 3S IGH, 2S & 4S which (must have) only a short freehub and special rear derailleur (RD) and 6S which uses both.
(Though there might also be a single speed version. We'll just ignore that)

Now, for the 2S and 4S does anyone really want to use Brompton "proprietary" components?
If you break down in the middle of nowhere, you are stuck. I guessing you cannot just roll into a bike shop and swap on standard Shimano parts.

And the 6S IGH & RD combo would seems to wipe out the advantages of both (IGH: simplicity, robustness and low maintenance; RD: light weight). You get the extra weight of the IGH plus the fiddliness/fragility of the RD system.
Plus you have to manage two shifters.
watch this video about the "new" gearing system. the 6 speed setup (at 1 m 30 secs) also seems insanely complicated.

View: https://youtu.be/2ZFyQeKZ3Zo


Plus how distinct are those 6S? How smooth are the jumps? Are you really only getting like four distinct speeds?

These so-called "improvements" make a simple non-proprietary (industry standard Sturmey Archer) Sprinter 5S IGH sound pretty appealing, even if 25 years old.

When first purchasing a Brompton I thought the transmission on the 6 speed sounded dodgy too. I bought a 3 speed. 3 speed is always in the wrong gear, so I decided to try a six speed. The shifting is super easy after you spend a day with it, and you can shift both levers at the same time no problem. The BWR 6 speed just works, I never have to adjust the derailleur and putting the rear wheel back in is much easier than an Alfine 8. I think the jury is still out on whether the new 4 speed is as reliable and easy to use as the 2 speed