National Champs *SPOILERS*

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resal

Veteran
....... Happened in the women's event the day before too.

To be practical for a moment though, how could you enforce such a rule? How to determine when a rider is riding for someone else? Allegiances form and break even outside team ranks, even during the race.

I am not sure quite what you mean by that first phrase I have quoted. It happened the day before so it is ok on the day after ?
It always happens ? We always do it wrong ? That is the way we have always done it ? We like doing it wrong ? I think I need a little help with your logic and how it works.

Then, before the practicalities, one needs to decide what the purpose of a National Championship road race is. I am quite clear on what a race like the Tour is. Before anyone can start, the teams have to receive and accept an entry with certain terms. Lance can't turn up with 40 riders, even though he could hire them and use finance to gain an edge. Similarly no sole rider teams allowed. I have long dreamed of the envelope dropping on the floor and looking with pride at the A.S.O. logo and savoring the moment before opening, wondering how dear Christian Prudhome is now going to make up for overlooking my invitation for so many years, after all I so much wanted to ride down the Champs. I deserve it. Seems to be the same in lots of races, they all seem to have this bizarre idea about teams starting with the same number of riders. Sort of like the organisers are trying to make it an even starting point, where possible. Perhaps they think their audience don't like events where the result is a foregone conclusion before the start, due to "resource". "That's racing" that I witness ( at this level anyway - we are not talking the Hillingdon evening spring series handicaps here but a competition to win a prestigious title). Perhaps I have it all wrong. Maybe I have the wrong idea about sport. I need some help with your ideas and logic here as well.

After we have sorted out that we can have a go at practicalities.
 

yello

Guest
I think I need a little help with your logic and how it works.

That's okay. I need help with your reasoning too! ;)

I say 'reasoning' because there is no logic involved. Certainly not in what I said anyway.

You clearly know bike racing so you know there are teams. Even if not officially in the same team, allegiances form and riders help other riders. Be it nationals, worlds, GTs, one dayers, etc etc etc - it always has happened and probably always will. Riders with little or no chance of victory ride for those with a chance - they have incentives other than victory. It's a dynamic that changes even during the course of a race - which I find intriguing in it's own right!

My point is merely that even if you did decide what "the purpose of a national championship road race" was (and by that I take it you imply best individual without team assistance) then you have to consider exactly what rules you have to prohibit riders assisting other riders, and just how would you police it. That's what I mean by practicalities.

Personally, I think it's a fruitless exercise. Best off to accept that's what happens and it's the name of the game. After all, the riders themselves seem content with it (with occasional exceptions!)
 

resal

Veteran
Yello - you did not answer my critique of your comment. We, your readers, still await enlightenment.

You then refer to "....you know there are teams...." well I had said so in the previous post, so probably quite a few readers managed to work that out, but thanks for your reinforcing comment anyway. I am sure there is somebody somewhere who appreciates it. You then mix together ".....nationals, worlds, GTs, one dayers, ...." Again, you are seriously confusing yourself. Please read my previous post.

I go on the Tour Web Site. I am urged in the first box, in the prime place on the first page, that I should go to the team competition section and urged to understand how team competition is really, very important. Now I don't think that is the case, and I don't think A.S.O. think that either, but they have motives I can well imagine, for trying to generate interest in this aspect of the race, at this stage of the race.

The national championships could be a team competition but that is not how it is set up or has been set up for many years. There is no team prize and no team competition. It is obviously an individual event and historically the rules made that very clear. However it is unique in road racing in being an event for individuals, everything else involving road racing, at a quality level, requires equal sized teams, as a starting point. On the track there are a variety of events at National and International level which are team or individual events, and which have rules making this clear. The points race at National Championships level is very clearly an individual race with a requirement that riders look to defend their own interests, whilst an event such as the Commonwealth Games (CG) allows teams of up to 3 riders from one nation to work together as a team, but that national teams do not collude.

Golf prides itself on honour and respect being part of the rules. Football decides that it does not penalise diving and conning the referee. Abuse of the referee is part of the entertainment. Critics of Manchester United (MU) state that decisions seem to go with MU more than the opposition. Statistics clearly show that referees appear either (i) not to be even-handed in their application of the rules or (ii) away teams seem to have a unique failure in discipline, when set against their season average, when visiting Old Trafford. Back-chat a Rugby Union ref and the penalty is moved 5 metres closer to the try line. Open your mouth again and you are off the pitch. Famously, Rob Hayles was disqualified for leading out Mark Cavendish in the points race so that Mark could win the final sprint and snatch Gold from the Aussie at the Melbourne CG. Non- medalist Hayles was disqualified from the results and Cavendish's win was allowed to stand over the disadvantaged Aussie. Quite what this could do for the standing of cycling was entirely lost on myself. Riders have been disqualified in the National Track champs for colluding in individual events. My point is that it is not the athletes that set the tone, it is the managers and officials and the authors of the rules. Rules are not inviolate.

The current problem (blind eye & desire to re-interpret the rules) regarding the Road National Championships, relates to the relationship between (i) British Cycling, (ii) the World Class Performance Program, (iii) the managers and riders of the professional team sponsored by Sky media, (iv) Sky media's cash investment in promoting cycling to a wider audience and (v) Sky Sports prime commercial status as the sport's media outlet. Undoubtedly, given the weight and controlling position of these vested interests, any voice in opposition, is, currently, a cry in the wilderness.

We are then at the paired points of "...how would you police it..." and ".... the riders themselves seem content with it (with occasional exceptions!)..." Well my first memories of riders not being happy with unfair conduct by other riders colluding to produce and unfair result goes back to the early 70's and Barry Hoban's comments. Multiple teams ganged up to ensure that Barry and the then minority of Continental based UK professional riders, never got a look in, year after year. The result was so obviously unfair and a farce then, to every right minded person, as it has been on several occasions since. Aggrieved riders then and now are caught in a dilemma. The reception by the interested fans of any form of complaint from a rider is significantly shaped by the reactions of the media and the officials in charge. Given the prejudice and financial and personal investment of so many controlling interests in the current outcome, there is not 1 chance in 10,000 that any rider at the butt end of Sky's tactics would make any complaints public. To do so would ensure that any chance of selection for (i) the WCPP, (ii) Team Sky, or (iii) representative honours for Team GB, was so significantly downgraded as to be nearly invisible. So we are then at the gift of those charged, or in the case of the sport of cycling in the UK, who have volunteered themselves to be in the position, to be responsible for upholding the rules. And there we have it. These volunteer officials can make a decision. They can make comment to the press, either in anticipation of what they know is likely to happen or post the event, on what did happen. They have many tools at their disposal to influence the conduct of the race. They can turn a blind eye. They can pretend that team-work is allowed in National Championships.

Compare and contrast our point of discussion with a far lesser sin - that purportrated by Hammish Haynes in 2006. He sat on Roger, did not do his fair share and won. Roger was so obviously the best rider in that race on the day. I am sure Hammish was delighted at the time. Now, 5 years on and with a Wiki page devoid of anything apart from that win and his career over, I wonder if Hammish has it in his mind that, in the future, he will entertain his grand-children at his knee with - "the day I robbed Roger". It is not exactly "daring do". Most right minded people thought his win hollow on the very day it happened. Hammish made a duff decision, when caught up in the excitement of moment. That is entirely different from the vested, interwoven and deliberately colluding interests of BC/WCPP/SKY and the senior staff in those organisations.
 

yello

Guest
I'm not even going to bother to read all of that. Jeez mate, talk about making mountains out of molehills. If you want to do a concise version, preferably without sarcasm, then I might respond.
 

montage

God Almighty
Location
Bethlehem
Yello - you did not answer my critique of your comment. We, your readers, still await enlightenment.

You then refer to "....you know there are teams...." well I had said so in the previous post, so probably quite a few readers managed to work that out, but thanks for your reinforcing comment anyway. I am sure there is somebody somewhere who appreciates it. You then mix together ".....nationals, worlds, GTs, one dayers, ...." Again, you are seriously confusing yourself. Please read my previous post.

I go on the Tour Web Site. I am urged in the first box, in the prime place on the first page, that I should go to the team competition section and urged to understand how team competition is really, very important. Now I don't think that is the case, and I don't think A.S.O. think that either, but they have motives I can well imagine, for trying to generate interest in this aspect of the race, at this stage of the race.

The national championships could be a team competition but that is not how it is set up or has been set up for many years. There is no team prize and no team competition. It is obviously an individual event and historically the rules made that very clear. However it is unique in road racing in being an event for individuals, everything else involving road racing, at a quality level, requires equal sized teams, as a starting point. On the track there are a variety of events at National and International level which are team or individual events, and which have rules making this clear. The points race at National Championships level is very clearly an individual race with a requirement that riders look to defend their own interests, whilst an event such as the Commonwealth Games (CG) allows teams of up to 3 riders from one nation to work together as a team, but that national teams do not collude.

Golf prides itself on honour and respect being part of the rules. Football decides that it does not penalise diving and conning the referee. Abuse of the referee is part of the entertainment. Critics of Manchester United (MU) state that decisions seem to go with MU more than the opposition. Statistics clearly show that referees appear either (i) not to be even-handed in their application of the rules or (ii) away teams seem to have a unique failure in discipline, when set against their season average, when visiting Old Trafford. Back-chat a Rugby Union ref and the penalty is moved 5 metres closer to the try line. Open your mouth again and you are off the pitch. Famously, Rob Hayles was disqualified for leading out Mark Cavendish in the points race so that Mark could win the final sprint and snatch Gold from the Aussie at the Melbourne CG. Non- medalist Hayles was disqualified from the results and Cavendish's win was allowed to stand over the disadvantaged Aussie. Quite what this could do for the standing of cycling was entirely lost on myself. Riders have been disqualified in the National Track champs for colluding in individual events. My point is that it is not the athletes that set the tone, it is the managers and officials and the authors of the rules. Rules are not inviolate.

The current problem (blind eye & desire to re-interpret the rules) regarding the Road National Championships, relates to the relationship between (i) British Cycling, (ii) the World Class Performance Program, (iii) the managers and riders of the professional team sponsored by Sky media, (iv) Sky media's cash investment in promoting cycling to a wider audience and (v) Sky Sports prime commercial status as the sport's media outlet. Undoubtedly, given the weight and controlling position of these vested interests, any voice in opposition, is, currently, a cry in the wilderness.

We are then at the paired points of "...how would you police it..." and ".... the riders themselves seem content with it (with occasional exceptions!)..." Well my first memories of riders not being happy with unfair conduct by other riders colluding to produce and unfair result goes back to the early 70's and Barry Hoban's comments. Multiple teams ganged up to ensure that Barry and the then minority of Continental based UK professional riders, never got a look in, year after year. The result was so obviously unfair and a farce then, to every right minded person, as it has been on several occasions since. Aggrieved riders then and now are caught in a dilemma. The reception by the interested fans of any form of complaint from a rider is significantly shaped by the reactions of the media and the officials in charge. Given the prejudice and financial and personal investment of so many controlling interests in the current outcome, there is not 1 chance in 10,000 that any rider at the butt end of Sky's tactics would make any complaints public. To do so would ensure that any chance of selection for (i) the WCPP, (ii) Team Sky, or (iii) representative honours for Team GB, was so significantly downgraded as to be nearly invisible. So we are then at the gift of those charged, or in the case of the sport of cycling in the UK, who have volunteered themselves to be in the position, to be responsible for upholding the rules. And there we have it. These volunteer officials can make a decision. They can make comment to the press, either in anticipation of what they know is likely to happen or post the event, on what did happen. They have many tools at their disposal to influence the conduct of the race. They can turn a blind eye. They can pretend that team-work is allowed in National Championships.

Compare and contrast our point of discussion with a far lesser sin - that purportrated by Hammish Haynes in 2006. He sat on Roger, did not do his fair share and won. Roger was so obviously the best rider in that race on the day. I am sure Hammish was delighted at the time. Now, 5 years on and with a Wiki page devoid of anything apart from that win and his career over, I wonder if Hammish has it in his mind that, in the future, he will entertain his grand-children at his knee with - "the day I robbed Roger". It is not exactly "daring do". Most right minded people thought his win hollow on the very day it happened. Hammish made a duff decision, when caught up in the excitement of moment. That is entirely different from the vested, interwoven and deliberately colluding interests of BC/WCPP/SKY and the senior staff in those organisations.


When's your first book out?
 

resal

Veteran
1.2.027 National championships National Championships shall be run under UCI regulations.

Conduct of participants in cycling races 1.2.079 to 1.2.083

1.2.081 Riders shall sportingly defend their own chances. Any collusion or behaviour likely to falsify or go against the interests of the competition shall be forbidden.

1.2.080 All licence holders shall, in whatever capacity, participate in cycling races in a sporting and fair manner. They shall look to contributing fairly to the sporting success of the race.

This year - was there a single rider, NOT riding for Sky/aka BC WCPP, who could say that he would have finished in the top 3 had Sky not ridden as a team ? I don't think so. Therefore irrelevant this year. However, that day will come and given the "closeness" of Sky/BC WCPP and those in charge of upholding the rules, "sooner" rather than "later", is the time to start making competitors aware of them and applying them.
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
1.2.027 National championships National Championships shall be run under UCI regulations.

Conduct of participants in cycling races 1.2.079 to 1.2.083

1.2.081 Riders shall sportingly defend their own chances. Any collusion or behaviour likely to falsify or go against the interests of the competition shall be forbidden.

1.2.080 All licence holders shall, in whatever capacity, participate in cycling races in a sporting and fair manner. They shall look to contributing fairly to the sporting success of the race.

This year - was there a single rider, NOT riding for Sky/aka BC WCPP, who could say that he would have finished in the top 3 had Sky not ridden as a team ? I don't think so. Therefore irrelevant this year. However, that day will come and given the "closeness" of Sky/BC WCPP and those in charge of upholding the rules, "sooner" rather than "later", is the time to start making competitors aware of them and applying them.


Please explain what is not sporting about not supporting your team mates, ensuring that the best one has the best chance of a result. It's almost impossible to sort out "illegal" combines (except possibly on the track.
Here's a simple premise - there is no point in having a law/rule which cannot be fairly policed and enforced. And if it could be, the sanction would be? Real world!
 

resal

Veteran
Please explain what is not sporting about not supporting your team mates, ensuring that the best one has the best chance of a result. It's almost impossible to sort out "illegal" combines (except possibly on the track.
Here's a simple premise - there is no point in having a law/rule which cannot be fairly policed and enforced. And if it could be, the sanction would be? Real world!

It's hard work isn't it. Again - there is no team prize in the National Championships. It is the one event on the road calendar that is for individuals. Therefore it is unsporting for groups, of whatever affiliation, to gang up on individuals, in this event.

Policing - as any Police Officer will tell you, you can only police a law when the majority of people want to follow it. In this case the lack of knowledge of the rules is patent at every level. So before anyone even turns a pedal, it has to be well understood in advance. I think there are more than enough individuals with clout to see some action in this regard. A good starting point would be the Sky Team director.

Sanction - dead easy - "you won by dint of unfair co-operation of others - disqualification". Again - that is why only disqualifying non-medalist Hayles, who so patently worked in a pre-arranged manner with Cav to get him a gold medal over the Aussie at the CG in Melbourne was such a lilly-livered, pathetic act by the commissaires at the event. It was morally bankrupt. Maybe in years to come, if Cav grows up, he will give his medal back. However, this was the individual who borrowed a gold medal off one of his mates so he could nick a seat in business class on the return of Team GB from Beijing. At least the BA Stewardesses had more spine than some cycling officials and kicked him out.
 

lilolee

Guru
Location
Maidenhead
Reading through this, let me get this right.

You have said it is wrong for any rider to co-operate with any other. If I did get that bit right you have therefore described a Time Trial and there is already one of these.

Way back when (I don't know when the laws changed) you weren't allowed to draft in triathlons, something like a 10 metre distance had to be maintained, with adjudicators along the course. This led to faster riders being disqualified because they wanted to overtake and were adjudged to be drafting. It was realised this rule was unenforceable so has been scrapped.

Finally what stopped any other rider just sitting on the tail of the Sky train?
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
It's hard work isn't it. Again - there is no team prize in the National Championships. It is the one event on the road calendar that is for individuals. Therefore it is unsporting for groups, of whatever affiliation, to gang up on individuals, in this event.

Policing - as any Police Officer will tell you, you can only police a law when the majority of people want to follow it. In this case the lack of knowledge of the rules is patent at every level. So before anyone even turns a pedal, it has to be well understood in advance. I think there are more than enough individuals with clout to see some action in this regard. A good starting point would be the Sky Team director.

Sanction - dead easy - "you won by dint of unfair co-operation of others - disqualification". Again - that is why only disqualifying non-medalist Hayles, who so patently worked in a pre-arranged manner with Cav to get him a gold medal over the Aussie at the CG in Melbourne was such a lilly-livered, pathetic act by the commissaires at the event. It was morally bankrupt. Maybe in years to come, if Cav grows up, he will give his medal back. However, this was the individual who borrowed a gold medal off one of his mates so he could nick a seat in business class on the return of Team GB from Beijing. At least the BA Stewardesses had more spine than some cycling officials and kicked him out.

I'll look forward to you:
a) Getting elected to the BC board
b) Proposing all the rule changes you clearly so keenly want
c) Getting your backside kicked in a vote by the more experienced and pragmatic people in the sport, who actually know about racing, how it works, and what it takes to win against world class opposition who also employ tactical sense.
d) Apologising to the GB riders and management for having the cheek to WIN and succeed tactically.

Now, if you want GB to go back to being good sports and fine losers, instead of the top ranked track nation in the world, and highly respected on the road, carry on!
 

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
Reading through this, let me get this right.

You have said it is wrong for any rider to co-operate with any other. If I did get that bit right you have therefore described a Time Trial and there is already one of these.

Way back when (I don't know when the laws changed) you weren't allowed to draft in triathlons, something like a 10 metre distance had to be maintained, with adjudicators along the course. This led to faster riders being disqualified because they wanted to overtake and were adjudged to be drafting. It was realised this rule was unenforceable so has been scrapped.

Finally what stopped any other rider just sitting on the tail of the Sky train?

I've just checked - it hasn't, just modified. The vast majority of Tris are non-drafting. Otherwise they would be called swim-road race- run. The enforcement has improved but people still try and cheat. Something Resal seems to be an expert on stopping.
 

resal

Veteran
I'll look forward to you:
a) Getting elected to the BC board
b) Proposing all the rule changes you clearly so keenly want
c) Getting your backside kicked in a vote by the more experienced and pragmatic people in the sport, who actually know about racing, how it works, and what it takes to win against world class opposition who also employ tactical sense.
d) Apologising to the GB riders and management for having the cheek to WIN and succeed tactically.

Now, if you want GB to go back to being good sports and fine losers, instead of the top ranked track nation in the world, and highly respected on the road, carry on!

You are totally confusing 2 separate issues to try and retain your perception on what you think should apply.

Points (a) & (b) Nobody needs any new rules they are there. I am quoting rules the UCI placed on governing bodies many years ago for National Championships. Maybe you have an identical opinion that the UCI also know nothing of the sport, just like me. To help you on your path to enlightenment you might then ask why the UCI introduced such a rule.

( c) Your confusion is complete. Once again - International GB representative events are for teams from competing nations. It is not a "Brung what you got" where Lance can turn up with 50 henchmen. The rules for competing fairly, in a single race, for individuals, once a year, have nothing to do with how well a team works elsewhere, either as a national team or as a trade team.

As to point (d) - every year as far as I could work out, a GB rider has won the GB championships. Do you want me to apologise to every one of them ? As to the point you did not make but I think you wanted made - apologising to a Sky rider for winning. I think I would word it like this - "I believe you are a professional, paid several times my modest salary. I suggest you spend sometime educating yourself to the rules of your profession. Most good professionals do that. Then you can thank me for pointing you in the right direction."

Your final point seems hellish confusing. I don't think you are saying that the success of team GB is somehow linked to a deliberate need not to apply rules which apply to 1 race a year, it appears you are suggesting an ethos regarding compliance with rules that spreads this attitude more widely. Please correct me if I have the wrong perception.
 

resal

Veteran
Finally what stopped any other rider just sitting on the tail of the Sky train?

What a cracking idea. Why didn't I think of that?

" The first part of the master plan was going great, I was sat on the back, doing next to diddly squat and then you will never guess what they did next ..................
 
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