n+1 - fast tourer

[MacB]

I'd see a couple of routes you could go here:-

1. buy something off the peg that you think fits the bill(not too expensive) and give it a decent workout and see how you develop, obviously test drive a few first. This could allow you to refine your requirements, or you may strike gold first time, and then make a further decision. Nothing wrong with selling it on fairly soon and then using the knowledge you've gained to choose something that would work better for you.

2. go for a custom/OTP frame that has a lot of versatility for example, the VN Amazon(on offer, frame, forks & headset at Fatbirds for about £1k) has clearances for up to 32mm, canti/v brake fittings, also has rear disc fittings, can take rack, guards. You can always run skinnier tyres in a bigger clearance frame but the reverse is never the case. If you're going custom then maybe consider sliding rear dropouts, with derailler hanger, disc brake tabs and able to accomodate rohloff(needs longer non drive dropout) as well as other hub gears. Here's the Bob Jackson version of this:-
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=494
this allows you to change the style of drivetrain easily and retain vertical, or semi vertical in this case, dropouts for ease of wheel changes.

The problem is that there's no guarantee that what suits you now will continue to meet your needs in the future. Personally I go for the versatility route to allow future changes, but nothing wrong with changing bikes either. I'm about to build up a bike with a hub gear but using a mini EBB that works on standard BB shells. How this goes will inform my decision on the custom ti Burls frame, we've agreed geometry etc but are still working on dropouts, basically sliders or mini EBB. I expect frame and forks to weigh in at a max of 2.4kg or 5.3lbs, which I think is pretty reasonable.

Regarding tyre size, I find 32mm work for me for long rides and use larger for commuting. But I've also run 23mm tyres and done some pretty long rides on those as well. I would expect to run 35mm puncture resistant in the Winter and go with a lightweight 32mm tyre the rest of the time. But there are plenty on here that will ride no more than 25mm(in a pinch) and have no issues with comfort etc. By the way, a lot of the reason that 28mm tyres are considered a good choice is that they're the biggest you'll get in a lot of frames or under a lot of brakes, without going to cantis or v's, I expect to see that gradually alter via disc brakes, but I could be wrong.

 

[Tail End Charlie]

I have precisely the same quandary as you, even down to already owning a Dawes Sardar. After long and hard thinking, I'm going to build some wheels with Snyper rims and fit Schwalbe Durano tyres in 1.1" width. Hopefully this will allow me to find out if a different bike would make so much more difference.

 

[Jezston]

I'd seriously think about getting a hub-gear equipped tourer if you're planning on putting the miles in and it sounds like you'd rather keep maintanance to a minimum!

If budget is no object a Rohloff-equipped job would be worth serious consideration.

Not that I've ever ridden one, what with being poor. I'm sure there are bar-end shifters for them, too.

 

[threebikesmcginty]

I'd definitely go the custom frame route if you've the time and the money. I Think most of the popular ones have been mentioned already, Yates, Hewitt, Jackson, the Villiers-Velo bikes look good too. I don't think I've read of anyone, that I can remember, being disappointed with a custom built bike made by one of the above.

 

[Aperitif]

It can only be a matter of time before you 'do an arallsopp' Alastair, and collate all your investigations, options and thoughts into a helpful book. Always a lot of reasoned proposals in what you say in threads of this nature. So: "MacBs Guide to Buying or Upgrading your Bicycle" - go for it!

 

[MacB]

I'd seriously think about getting a hub-gear equipped tourer if you're planning on putting the miles in and it sounds like you'd rather keep maintanance to a minimum!

If budget is no object a Rohloff-equipped job would be worth serious consideration.

Not that I've ever ridden one, what with being poor. I'm sure there are bar-end shifters for them, too.

Twist shifter only for Rohloff but you can use a bar end extender to create a section of 22.2mm bar for it to fit on, £40 for the pro job or about £5 if you make one yourself like I did.

Actually I think a Rohloff would be a poor choice, he already has bikes for heavier duties which is where the Rohloff wins out, lots of low gears. If you look at the I-9, Alfine 8 or 11 none of them go below about 25 gear inches on a 700c wheel. I compared the 4 and, in the regular riding range, there was nothing to choose between them. Taking just two, the Alfine 11 and Rohloff using 36/20 and 48/16 respectively you get almost identical gears for a great part of the range:-

Alfine gears 2 to 11 are the same as Rohloff gears 4 to 13 and the Alfine gear 1 is the same as the Rohloff gear 2. This means that you get 11 gears from the Alfine covering 25.6 to 104.7 and you get exactly the same 11 gears with the Rohloff. The three extra are 22.6, 29.2 and 118.9 gear inches(this is using a 700x32 tyre). Now given that 104.7 GI's will get you 31.1mph at 100rpm I'm not convinced that there's a big need for the extra 118.9 inch gear. The same at the bottom of the range, Alfine you get a 25.6 gear and Rohloff you get 22.6, 25.6 and 29.2 gear, the next gear in each being 33.1 inches.

If I wanted a heavy duty, go anywhere, touring bike then the Rohloff would be the choice. For a fast day ride, long training rides and lightweight touring then the Alfine 11 would be the choice. But I'd also want disc brakes, vertical dropouts and a derailler hanger so that I could use the bike 'geared' if I wanted. It wouldn't be a biggie to run it geared in Summer and hub geared the rest of the time, as long as you're good with 135mm rear dropouts. Though I have been told you can just add spacers to a 130mm hub as well, but not tried it personally.

 

[MacB]

It can only be a matter of time before you 'do an arallsopp' Alastair, and collate all your investigations, options and thoughts into a helpful book. Always a lot of reasoned proposals in what you say in threads of this nature. So: "MacBs Guide to Buying or Upgrading your Bicycle" - go for it!

even worse I could end up on a bent maybe I could subtitle it 'a route to cycling insanity'

 

[Aperitif]

even worse I could end up on a bent maybe I could subtitle it 'a route to cycling insanity'

No shame in that - although I would dread seeing your 'book of options' for that sort of machinery! And you have yet to move into helmetcam territory...

 

[MacB]

No shame in that - although I would dread seeing your 'book of options' for that sort of machinery! And you have yet to move into helmetcam territory...

true on the bent but I've yet to move into helmet territory so not quite sure where I'd stick a helmet cam, suggestions on a postcard are NOT required before 3BM chips in.

 

[srw]

If I wanted a heavy duty, go anywhere, touring bike then the Rohloff would be the choice.

I agree! We have one on the tandem. But I can't see myself doing a longish tour without Mrs W anytime soon. I can see myself doing longish, quickish day or overnight rides.

 

[MacB]

I agree! We have one on the tandem. But I can't see myself doing a longish tour without Mrs W anytime soon. I can see myself doing longish, quickish day or overnight rides.

So that leaves you 8/9/11 speed hubs or derailler setup of your choice, I'd discount the 9 speed as the I-9 is quite a bit heavier than than the Alfines. Realistically I reckon the 8 speed is more of a do it all type hub and not enough for this sort of riding. So Alfine 11 or deraillers it is and at this point how you like to ride matters. If you want to flick up and down gears keeping a set tempo then deraillers are the way. If you're more old fashioned, like me, and will change your pedalling to suit then I'd say Alfine 11. If you're going deraillers then I'd always look to minimise front shifting, for me that would mean a triple with majority riding in the middle ring or a super compact double(like 42/26 or 44/28) with majority riding in big ring. But the super compact idea isn't exactly stock and would take some fettling. If I do it then I'd envisage using a MTB triple, rings in inner and middle slots, a bashguard and using a bar end shifters for the front so that a MTB FD could be used.

It's at this point I normally decide that two bikes are needed and not one, I'd go for:-

1. titanium frame, carbon forks, decent clearances, disc brakes, hub dynamo, mudguards, lightweight rear rack, Alfine 11 hub gear, drop bars with crosstop levers and mount the shifter either bar end or near the hoods via a space bar. Just make sure the frame has a derailler hanger if you want to change at any time.

2. carbon road bike with clearance for 28mm tyres, triple chainset, STIs etc, the Volagi bikes I linked to were merely to show that this sort of thing is now hitting the market with disc brakes.

Bike 1 does the general stuff and bike 2 is for nice weather only, but if I had to prioritise it would be bike 1 first for sheer versatility. As for speed I'd expect to be able to average no more than 2mph less on bike 1 over bike 2, unladen and I'd expect both to be able to perform north of a 16mph average on a decent run.

 

[PpPete]

Thanks for all the input so far. I think MacB's right - I need to do a systematic analysis!

Tyre width
My inclination is to go for wider rather than narrower. My solo bike experience is 37mm width on both 26" and 18" wheels. I'm likely to be mainly on British rough tarmac with the occasional foray onto sustrans-style hard-packed sand/gravel. Doing a bit of reading it appears that 28mm is probably most appropriate.

Frame material
The consensus seems to be that carbon and Aluminium are going to be harsher and less durable than steel and titanium, but lighter. Since comfort and durability are important, that probably pushes me towards something more traditional. Titanium looks nice and is lighter than steel by a kilo or so and won't rust but is very expensive. And I'm not convinced that a kilo or so off the bike frame is going to do a great deal - a kilo is what I'll put on the bike when I fill a couple of bottles.

Transmission
I've got lost. The reviews of the Raven Sport Tour suggest that it's not as "sporty" as it might be - suggesting that derailleur is going to be better than Rohloff if I want a sportier bike. Beyond that, the competing claims of Shimano, SRAM, Campag and the different grades of each bewilder me. I want something durable, easy to maintain and adjust and with a wide range of gears. Mrs w has a bike with some variety of integrated brake lever and gear lever. Having tried it I'm not entirely convinced that the advantages outweigh the apparent maintenance problems.

Maybe MacB's other thought - that I should find a custom frame maker - is the sensible one.

It may well be that

Tyre width.... given that you've other "heavier duty" bikes I would have swayed more to narrower tyres...I'm one of those MacB alludes to using 25 mm. I tried commuting on Marathon 32s and hated it. But each to their own....and you dont have to use all the clearance if you have it on the frame. Bear in mind that whether or not you want mudguards makes a big difference to what tyre size you can use on some frames.

Material.... with comfort and durability as lead criteria, I think you are right to be looking at steel and titanium.... but a really good steel frame is very little cheaper than some of the current offers on titanium. That 1 kg difference is probably only going to set you back about 10% of the cost of the whole bike.

Transmission ....
"durable, easy to maintain and adjust and with a wide range of gears" I'll bow to MacB's vastly superior knowledge on hub gears.... but for me at least a 9 speed triple Shimano derailleur drive train meets all those criteria, and is ideal with the bar end shifters which I seem to recall you prefer?

 

[User482]

The trouble is that recommendations are limited to direct experience! I have a Thorn Audax (mark one) which is a lovely bike - reasonably light, very comfortable, takes guards, 28mm tyres and a pannier rack. I know you said you didn't need to carry stuff, but it's nice to have the option of a short tour. Mine is 15 years old, and I've just treated it to its first respray, so they appear to be durable. From your OP, any good quality audax type bike should fit the bill.

Regarding gearing, the difference between shimano, sram and campag is small, and mainly personal preference. One consideration is that if you do your own maintenance, campag will require some new tools. I wouldn't be without STIs - the ability to change gear when riding on the hoods is a real plus for me.

 

[srw]

https://www.cyclechat.net/

In the end I did what I should have done to start with, and went into a shop. Paul Smith at Corridori sold me a Van Nicholas Yukon on the strength of a helpful conversation and a test-ride. 25mm tyres, rather exotic wheels, Ultegra triple transmission and mudguards. I may well get a hub dynamo front wheel as a second option if I get into night/evening riding or very long distances.

There are particular bottle cages I want, to match the ones on the tandem, so those will be next, and I'm thinking of a smallish saddle-bag with QR so that I can carry something.

I picked it up yesterday morning and took it out yesterday afternoon. My local 14-mile circuit, which I usually get round, pushing hard, in something over 55 minutes went in 46, without (it felt) exerting myself excessively. An average of 14.5 mph went up to 17.8. It's freaky seeing a 2 at the start of the speed for more than odd moments of downhill.

 

[theclaud]

if I get into night/evening riding

Now there's a thought