My upgrade plan and mixing Campag 10/11speed

[winjim]

I currently have a Bianchi Via Nirone 7, 2010 Campagnolo Xenon 10sp, which I would like to upgrade to Chorus 11sp. I intend to do this bit by bit as I can afford the parts, and then eventually transfer the parts to a sexy new carbon frameset. Order of work would be:

1. Upgrade wheelset (probably Fulcrum quattro or similar for now)
2. Upgrade brakeset to Chorus.
3. Upgrade BB and crankset to Chorus 11sp 52/36.
4. Upgrade shifters and cassette to Chorus 11sp.
5. Upgrade rear mech to Chorus 11sp.
6. Upgrade front mech to Chorus 11sp.
7. Transfer parts to sexy new carbon frameset, rebuild old bike as stock.

Does this sound feasible? Specifically can I run an 11sp Chorus chainset with a 10sp drivechain? Can I run my existing Xenon rear mech as 11sp with a change to shifters and cassette? Is Chorus worth it or should I save my pennies and go for Athena?

As always, any sensible input would be much appreciated.

 

[AndyRM]

Is Chorus not a step up from Athena?

Not sure on your more technical questions, but I'd have thought a 10sp rear mech would lack the range to run 11sp?

 

[Andrew Br]

Specifically can I run an 11sp Chorus chainset with a 10sp drivechain?

As always, any sensible input would be much appreciated.

You can run 11sp shifters with a 10sp RD if you use a Shiftmate:- http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.php
You'll need #2.
SJS sell them.

FWIW, I'm running 10sp Veloce shifters with a 10sp Ultegra RD and a 32-12 cassette and Shiftmate #3
After a bit of faffing about, it works perfectly.
On another bike I'm running 11sp Chorus levers with a 9sp XT RD and an XT FD with a triple chainset.
I've no need for a Shiftmate 'cos the spacing is perfect.
At some stage I'll upgrade to a 10sp Ultegra RD and get Shiftmate #4 if for no other reason than I'll be able to swap wheels between bikes.

As far as the shifters go, I'm delighted with the improvement between the Chorus and the Veloce but I haven't tried Athena.
I wouldn't bother with a Chorus cassette, I'd just get the cheapest with the range that I needed (I'm currently running SRAM cassettes but that won't work for you).

I think you'll be able to use your existing chainset/FD with the 11sp shifters.

Do I need to tell you to make sure that the new wheels are 11sp compatible ?
You use a spacer with a 10sp cassette until you upgrade.

Hope this helps.

.

 

[winjim]

Hope this helps.

.

Very much so. Those shiftmate doodads look very useful. Re wheels, Campag claim that 10 and 11sp are interchangable without spacers.

 

[winjim]

Is Chorus not a step up from Athena?

Not sure on your more technical questions, but I'd have thought a 10sp rear mech would lack the range to run 11sp?

Yes, Chorus is one up. It's full carbon compared to Athena's carbon/alloy mix. It is however significantly more expensive. Interestingly, Campag do EPS versions of Record, Super Record and Athena, but not Chorus as far as I can see. There must be a market for "entry level" electronic systems and for pro level, but not mid range.

I think Campag 10 and 11sp cassettes are the same width so range shouldn't be too much of a problem.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

You can run 11sp shifters with a 10sp RD if you use a Shiftmate:- http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.php
You'll need #2.
SJS sell them.

FWIW, I'm running 10sp Veloce shifters with a 10sp Ultegra RD and a 32-12 cassette and Shiftmate #3
After a bit of faffing about, it works perfectly.
On another bike I'm running 11sp Chorus levers with a 9sp XT RD and an XT FD with a triple chainset.
I've no need for a Shiftmate 'cos the spacing is perfect.
At some stage I'll upgrade to a 10sp Ultegra RD and get Shiftmate #4 if for no other reson than I'll be able to swap wheels between bikes.

As far as the shifters go, I'm delighted with the improvement between the Chorus and the Veloce but I haven't tried Athena.
I wouldn't bother with a Chorus cassette, I'd just get the cheapest with the range that I needed (I'm currently running SRAM cassettes but that won't work for you).

I think you'll be able to use your existing chainset/FD with the 11sp shifters.

Do I need to tell you to make sure that the new wheels are 11sp compatible ?
You use a spacer with a 10sp cassette until you upgrade.

Hope this helps.

.

I don't believe the OP needs a shiftmate. He says he is swapping the shifters and cassette at the same time to 11sp. I am sure the cable pull of 10 and 11 speed rear mechs are the same (1.48x factor shifter cable pull and mech traverse). That #2 shiftmate is for different speed shifters and cassettes.

 

[Christopher]

Depending on funds, the OP might find it cheaper to buy all the 11sp parts as a groupset rather than piecemeal.

 

[Sharky]

Hi,

Unless you have bits which are worn or broken, I would keep with what you have. Once you start changing bits, you come across slight incompatibilities or cable tensions which need to be readjusted and can take a while to get everything running smoothly again. If the target is to end up with a swish N+1, probably better to save your pennies or to buy through a cheque spread scheme that some dealers do. Buying a whole bike is often much cheaper than the sum of the parts.

Good luck
Keith

 

[winjim]

I don't believe the OP needs a shiftmate. He says he is swapping the shifters and cassette at the same time to 11sp. I am sure the cable pull of 10 and 11 speed rear mechs are the same (1.48x factor shifter cable pull and mech traverse). That #2 shiftmate is for different speed shifters and cassettes.

I thought a shiftmate might be a handy interim measure, but having looked at the price of them (£38!) I might as well buy a new cassette.

Depending on funds, the OP might find it cheaper to buy all the 11sp parts as a groupset rather than piecemeal.

That is an option, but £800 is a lot to splurge in one go. Doing it this way helps spread the cost, and I can try and hunt around in the sales.

Hi,

Unless you have bits which are worn or broken, I would keep with what you have. Once you start changing bits, you come across slight incompatibilities or cable tensions which need to be readjusted and can take a while to get everything running smoothly again. If the target is to end up with a swish N+1, probably better to save your pennies or to buy through a cheque spread scheme that some dealers do. Buying a whole bike is often much cheaper than the sum of the parts.

Good luck
Keith

The eventual aim is indeed to get a swish n+1, but that's a long way in the future. In the interim I want to make some upgrades to my existing bike anyway (wheels, crankset/BB and brakes). I don't mind having to adjust things :-)

 

[Graeme_FK]

You can't really do this piecemeal (well, apart from the brakes... ).

No doubt by "bodging" things with a Shiftmate it might *work* but it'll not work anything like correctly until you have all the parts in situ and in the interim you'll have cost yourself the warranty by mixing and matching parts that are not designed to work together, so it's really not advisable.

The pull ratio on the 10s and 11s levers and mechs are fundamentally incompatible and the Shiftmate doesn't actually fix that completely. Additionally, the rear derailleur return spring in the Xenon RD is not strong enough to drive the Chorus UltraShift levers - it pulls at a little under 1kg total, the Chorus return spring at 1.25 kg, so even if you can fix the difference in mech movement vs cable recovery in the lever, what you normally get is a good upshift, or a good downshift but you can't dial in to get both. We had this problem in the early days of UltraShift on the 10s systems until the special versions of the old-shape Veloce and Centaur RDs were introduced in 2009 - these were superceded in the 2010 model year with the introduction of the correctly-matched Veloce and Centaur RDs and PowerShift levers. Shiftmates make this worse as they add friction & it's that friction that the return spring is, in part, fighting.

10s systems don't shift correctly with 11s chainsets - the chainring spacing is different (closer) and the downshift from big ring to small will always be a slight lottery, the upshift will be OK but not great (profiling on the chain links and the ring won't match) plus small ring to top 3 (as opposed to top only) sprockets at the rear can induce a chainsuck-like problem as the chain will touch the inside of the big chainring and may catch on the lift pins in the wrong place. This problem is worse on Compact and Compact Evo than on 53/39.

10 and 11s cassettes will go onto the same cassette body, no issues - The Fulcrum Quattros or Campagnolo Scirocco H35s are excellent wheels at the price-point. The Sciroccos have better torsional stiffness because of the Mega G3 spoke pattern but are otherwise virtually identical.

Go for Chorus, for sure - it's a mature product that works very well indeed and is the favoured choice amongst a lot of riders that want the functionality of Record or Super Record but don't need the extra weight saving overall, or the increased rigidity in the chain-set and derailleurs that comes with the different materials in the higher groups. Just do it in one hit ...!

HTH
Graeme
Velotech Cycling Ltd (Campagnolo main SC, UK)

 

[winjim]

Thanks @Graeme_FK for that spectacularly comprehensive answer . That's interesting about spring return force - I hadn't even considered that as an issue.

My current thinking is to upgrade the wheelset asap, and save up for an entire chorus groupset. I think a compromised drivechain would defeat the object of the upgrade.

Plus that leaves me more time to worry about funny things like crankarm length...

 

[Graeme_FK]

@winjim , no problem .... :-)
We get asked this question a lot - I just haven't gotten around to posting an answer at our FAQ page yet:
http://www.velotech-cycling.ltd.uk/campagnolo_faq.shtml

Point of interest (and a common misconception) to deal with, indirectly, in RecordAceFromNew's comment - We get a lot of queries about ShiftMates ...

We are normally asked about mixing Shimano with Campagnolo - "ShimErgo" systems - but the reasons that won't work 100% correctly are related to the reasons why a ShiftMate isn't a 100% solution in the all-Campag 10 / 11 case ...

Shimano and Campagnolo have fundamentally different approaches to the problem that chain passes through differing angles to make a shift at either end of the cassette, compared to the middle. Each each click on a Campagnolo lever recovers the same amount of cable, once the cable is correctly pre-tensioned by a combination of the barrel adjuster and the first "click" ... Campagnolo vary the sprocket spacing and that works in conjunction with the overall geometry of the RD to produce accurate indexing. Shimano adopt a mechanically different approach, as do SRAM.

What this means is that whilst Shiftmates can work "OK" in a "ShimErgo" type situation, they are not perfect. Using one to change the distance moved proportional to the amount of cable recovered is flawed as the ratio of reduction then expansion of spacing in an 11s cassette is neither constant, nor based on the same algorithm as the 10s.

Most users running hybrid systems where two manufacturer's parts are mixed are aware that the system will be flawed and will live with those flaws but where the object is to upgrade a single manufacturer's drive train that works very well in it's own right, it seems retrograde, as winjim says, to take a backward step in functionality - better to buy the bits piece by piece and hang onto them until all the parts are ready to fit ...

For info - There *are* ways to get a Campag 10s RD to almost-but-not-quite mimic the 11s RD by playing with the cable anchorage, and there are articles to be had on the web that tell you how to do it - but again, they don't work perfectly, for the reasons outlined above ...

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

[B]Campagnolo vary the sprocket spacing[/B] and that works in conjunction with the overall geometry of the RD to produce accurate indexing. Shimano adopt a mechanically different approach, as do SRAM.

[USER=22188]@Graeme_FK do you happen to have cable pull and/or spacing measurements that demonstrate what you said, which perhaps can provide some indication of degree of (in)compatibility across different speeds within Campag, and across manufacturer platforms?

I ask because in addition to appreciating your precise, no-nonsense knowledge base essential in the pro role you are in, I also think there is tremendous value in understanding the basis of what "works reasonably" if not "near perfect" and why - as demonstrated by e.g. Chris Juden's ctc article (which I think many would consider a major contribution in the field - me certainly based on personal experience), or indeed Lennard Zinn's experience that 11 speed wheels are actually compatible across all 3 platforms.[/user]