More than 32,000 people have died on British roads in the past 10 years

[Glow worm]

Even travelling by bus doesn't look too great either!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8415726.stm

 

[Lurker]

If you look at the interactive road map and the associated stats, you will see that the very vast majority of KSI's are not cyclists or Pedestrians, but the car drivers themselves -http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=50698

As being hit from behind on a cycle is actually a fairly rare occurence, I'd suggest you consider using the primary position more to skew the odds if you are that worried about a car hitting you off at either 50mph or 60mph - either one is going to hurt if they do.

I'm not sure of the relevance of your first statement. From a cycling perspective what concerns me most is my exposure to risk while cycling. And the source of that exposure is overwhelmingly motorised road users.

Actually I'm not sure of the relevance of your second statement either.... again, since the danger comes from cars driven by people at speed, isn't the onus on those people to change their behaviour? (and, yes, I am aware of the primary position and how to use it to mitigate other people's poor driving).

 

[very-near]

I'm not sure of the relevance of your first statement. From a cycling perspective what concerns me most is my exposure to risk while cycling. And the source of that exposure is overwhelmingly motorised road users.

Actually I'm not sure of the relevance of your second statement either.... again, since the danger comes from cars driven by people at speed, isn't the onus on those people to change their behaviour? (and, yes, I am aware of the primary position and how to use it to mitigate other people's poor driving).

Given what you have just said, we are in agreement that poor driving standards play a significant part in these accidents. We have covered this at length before now on other threads recently, but what really stands out is tha inexperience behind the wheel increases the risk far above that of just speed on its own. This is consistent with the high premiums charged by insurance companies to young drivers.

 

[dellzeqq]

To continue the lazy theme Del - could you kindly point me to the statistics on the construction traffic issue. I can then be out of everybody's hair as I really do prefer crunching numbers to putting words together.

TIA

there are no official statistics - which is, in itself, desperate. Only newspaper reports. My recollection is that six out of eight lorry deaths in 2008 were caused by construction lorries.

Can I crave your indulgence by going over a bit of old ground. I used to be on a TfL committee (with Tom Bogdanovich of the LCC amongst others) that considered the contribution that cycling might make to the 2012 Olympics. We met the chap responsible for the construction phase transport plan - I'd have to look up his name - and asked for
a) every driver entering or leaving the site to have a criminal records check
left side mirrors with fresnel lenses to be fitted to every lorry entering or leaving the site

our motivation was twofold - to reduce the risk of injury from these lorries, and to set a benchmark. We were rebuffed. This was in 2006.

 

[gavintc]

Puts the Afghan war in perspective doesnt it.

(102 soldiers in 8 years)

I know that the detailed numbers do not change the principle, but for accuracy, the number of deaths is 237 in 8 years and 102 this year.

 

[jonesy]

there are no official statistics - which is, in itself, desperate. Only newspaper reports. My recollection is that six out of eight lorry deaths in 2008 were caused by construction lorries.

Can I crave your indulgence by going over a bit of old ground. I used to be on a TfL committee (with Tom Bogdanovich of the LCC amongst others) that considered the contribution that cycling might make to the 2012 Olympics. We met the chap responsible for the construction phase transport plan - I'd have to look up his name - and asked for
a) every driver entering or leaving the site to have a criminal records check
left side mirrors with fresnel lenses to be fitted to every lorry entering or leaving the site

our motivation was twofold - to reduce the risk of injury from these lorries, and to set a benchmark. We were rebuffed. This was in 2006.

There is some relevant analysis here:
http://londonroadsafety.tfl.gov.uk/...research_police-collision-files_2001-2006.pdf

and here:
http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/r..._britain_s_roads_establishing_the_causes_.htm

 

[very-near]

One road, 300 cars, 2 bikes. A collision involving a car and a bike results in the death of 2 car occupants and the cyclist.

Are cars more dangerous because twice as many in the car died?

Is there any chance you can re-work that one as it doesn't make a lot of sense

 

[very-near]

Of course it does.

There are millions more cars on the road than bikes. KSI stats need to be read proportionally.

As in KSIs per miles travelled ?

 

[StuartG]

Can I crave your indulgence by going over a bit of old ground. I used to be on a TfL committee (with Tom Bogdanovich of the LCC amongst others) that considered the contribution that cycling might make to the 2012 Olympics.

To go off topic I could not help noticing that last night I drove (sorry) passed Olympic Park on the link from the Blackwall tunnel to the M11 the first building nearing completion was not the velodrome but, wait for it, a multistorey carpark!

Is this the venue for a new British Olympic sport?
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKAME9fAA-4

 

[very-near]

A more direct question, if I may-

20mph speed limits have been shown to improve road safety.

What's the problem with them?

Well they wouldn't help reduce congestion where an existing road has an average speed of 40mph, and consequentially, and they would increase pollution at a local level as the vehicles would stay in the area for longer, as well as there would be less stirring of the air to dissipate any fumes they give off. Lower limits also increase journey times and in turn will increase fatigue and that in turn increases the risk of driver error which is as we know the primary cause of accidents in the first place - innit

 

[jonesy]

A more direct question, if I may-

20mph speed limits have been shown to improve road safety.

What's the problem with them?

Just to highlight the key point here, lest anyone have forgotten it...

 

[Lurker]

Given what you have just said, we are in agreement that poor driving standards play a significant part in these accidents. We have covered this at length before now on other threads recently, but what really stands out is tha inexperience behind the wheel increases the risk far above that of just speed on its own. This is consistent with the high premiums charged by insurance companies to young drivers.

It would be more accurate to say that poor driving standards play an overwhelmingly significant part in these collisions. The extent to which drivers are at fault in such collisions (rather than cyclists) has been quantified in a number of reports, most recently that discussed at
http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=50675

I don't agree that inexperience in driving can be separated out from 'just speed on its own'. Driving at speed is an expression of inexperience - hence the term 'boy racers'. If we can cut the speed, inexperience becomes much less of a problem since as we know both the likelihood and severity of a crash decreases with decreasing speed.

 

[very-near]

It would be more accurate to say that poor driving standards play an overwhelmingly significant part in these collisions. The extent to which drivers are at fault in such collisions (rather than cyclists) has been quantified in a number of reports, most recently that discussed at
http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=50675

I don't agree that inexperience in driving can be separated out from 'just speed on its own'. Driving at speed is an expression of inexperience - hence the term 'boy racers'. If we can cut the speed, inexperience becomes much less of a problem since as we know both the likelihood and severity of a crash decreases with decreasing speed.

The problem with this mindset is that if the general public considers the limits to be set arbitrarily and not relevant to an open and empty stretch of road, then they will ignore them and revert to the mantra 'proceed in a manner at which you can stop within the distrance you see to be safe'. This isn't a problem for experienced drivers but the inexperienced ones are less able to judge this with any degree of accuracy - which uis born out in the stats on young drivers.

 

[Lurker]

The problem with this mindset is that if the general public considers the limits to be set arbitrarily and not relevant to an open and empty stretch of road, then they will ignore them and revert to the mantra 'proceed in a manner at which you can stop within the distrance you see to be safe'

Your point being...?

I would have no objection if people obeyed the Highway Code (rule 126) which states clearly that drivers should:

"Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear....".

If we could manage to get them to obey this simple instruction, this thread wouldn't have been created.

 

[very-near]

Your point being...?

I would have no objection if people obeyed the Highway Code (rule 126) which states clearly that drivers should:

"Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear....".

If we could manage to get them to obey this simple instruction, this thread wouldn't have been created.

There is a risk that lower speed limits will become a poor substitute for experience and alertness behind the wheel.
Ta for the quote anyway, I've used it myself in the past in debates and was refering to the sprit which it is applied.