Mercian Cycles to close

[biggs682]

Let's hope it goes well

 

[raleighnut]

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

I certainly wish them well but I if I had any skin in the game I would be worried by the fact that the new owners are "passionate cyclists”.

I was quite old when I really understood why operations, be they businesses, schools or government departments should have the people who make the "big decision" not be experts in that subject. In a nutshell the experts or enthusiasts are so certain that "they know the answer" they don't listen to what they are being told.

The new owners have just taken over so almost certainly they won't have had the time to look at the website, but I wonder if the website reflected the attitude of the last owners and maybe this explains why they had problems.

I love steel frames but the web site is all about how steel was wonderful in the past and not how it is relevant today and to my mind it is still very relevant, to many, many riders outside of elite racing. Genesis even tried the 953 Team Volare although they dropped it pretty quickly it wasn't obviously embarassing when compared with everyone else on Carbon Fibre frames.

But one big problem is that when I was a lad all "proper" cyclists had to have a frame made from Reynolds 531/753 tubes although Columbus was acceptable if you wanted to be odd. Looking back I can't remember anyone who actually knew what 531 was, it was a "magic" metal, the internet has made the subject much easier to understand.

This knowledge is a problem for suppliers like Reynolds as anyone vaguely interested can find out that 520/525 is an off the shelf metal (4130/25CrMo4/SCM430 Or SCM420) formed into tubes shaped for lightweight bike frames and unbranded/own branded, such as Genesis Mjolnir, tubes can be just as good.

This problem is passed on the the sellers of such tubes made into frames, I paid £800 for my 753 Raleigh frame a few years ago and thought that was a top price for a limited run with a few quality issues. So a bespoke Mercian which is listed at £1,395 for a 725 frame seems steep, but to someone younger without the baggage of 60 odd years it could easily be fine.

725 is heat treated 525 but unlike 753 this doesn't result in a lighter frame so there is still the problem of what is price actually bringing to the table, 725 over 520 or unbranded Cr-Mo and a bespokes frame? For some getting the exact frame they want is worth the extra over a £500-£700 off the shelf 725 frame, but remove the 725 premium and you could be looking at £300 for a frame that for all practical purposes is the same.

Whenever I look at a 725 frame I am struck by how much heavier they are than a 753 frame and just think what's going on, 40 years of development, high price for what is so obviously, to me , an old idea that is just a commodity product. In the same way that a Rolex is a just a watch.

Surely the future is invest in carbon fibre production equipment so that you can have a steel or cf Mercian, but are the new owners focused on steel because that is why they bought the business in the first place? Apart from one photo of a lovely looking bike I haven't seen a Woodrup/Bob Jackson, the website still has more information coming soon.

Bye

Ian

 

[Smokin Joe]

But one big problem is that when I was a lad all "proper" cyclists had to have a frame made from Reynolds 531/753 tubes although Columbus was acceptable if you wanted to be odd.

I beg your pardon?

I'd ask you to step outside if it wasn't for my back.

 

[Illaveago]

Good morning,

I certainly wish them well but I if I had any skin in the game I would be worried by the fact that the new owners are "passionate cyclists”.

I was quite old when I really understood why operations, be they businesses, schools or government departments should have the people who make the "big decision" not be experts in that subject. In a nutshell the experts or enthusiasts are so certain that "they know the answer" they don't listen to what they are being told.

The new owners have just taken over so almost certainly they won't have had the time to look at the website, but I wonder if the website reflected the attitude of the last owners and maybe this explains why they had problems.

I love steel frames but the web site is all about how steel was wonderful in the past and not how it is relevant today and to my mind it is still very relevant, to many, many riders outside of elite racing. Genesis even tried the 953 Team Volare although they dropped it pretty quickly it wasn't obviously embarassing when compared with everyone else on Carbon Fibre frames.

But one big problem is that when I was a lad all "proper" cyclists had to have a frame made from Reynolds 531/753 tubes although Columbus was acceptable if you wanted to be odd. Looking back I can't remember anyone who actually knew what 531 was, it was a "magic" metal, the internet has made the subject much easier to understand.

This knowledge is a problem for suppliers like Reynolds as anyone vaguely interested can find out that 520/525 is an off the shelf metal (4130/25CrMo4/SCM430 Or SCM420) formed into tubes shaped for lightweight bike frames and unbranded/own branded, such as Genesis Mjolnir, tubes can be just as good.

This problem is passed on the the sellers of such tubes made into frames, I paid £800 for my 753 Raleigh frame a few years ago and thought that was a top price for a limited run with a few quality issues. So a bespoke Mercian which is listed at £1,395 for a 725 frame seems steep, but to someone younger without the baggage of 60 odd years it could easily be fine.

725 is heat treated 525 but unlike 753 this doesn't result in a lighter frame so there is still the problem of what is price actually bringing to the table, 725 over 520 or unbranded Cr-Mo and a bespokes frame? For some getting the exact frame they want is worth the extra over a £500-£700 off the shelf 725 frame, but remove the 725 premium and you could be looking at £300 for a frame that for all practical purposes is the same.

Whenever I look at a 725 frame I am struck by how much heavier they are than a 753 frame and just think what's going on, 40 years of development, high price for what is so obviously, to me , an old idea that is just a commodity product. In the same way that a Rolex is a just a watch.

Surely the future is invest in carbon fibre production equipment so that you can have a steel or cf Mercian, but are the new owners focused on steel because that is why they bought the business in the first place? Apart from one photo of a lovely looking bike I haven't seen a Woodrup/Bob Jackson, the website still has more information coming soon.

Bye

Ian

I think going down the carbon fibre route would be far more expensive than you think. The would need the skilled people to design and then build the frames. They could probably buy in ready made carbon frame and badge them up.
They have taken on the previous skilled workers so they need to utilise their skills.
I think the whole industry needs a re think! A lot of the manufacturers have all gone down their own routes producing their own style and sizing where nothing is standardised and non interchangeable. It must be a nightmare trying to keep stocks of parts for bikes. That is why I prefer my old classic steel bikes. Most of the parts are standard size and interchangeable.

 

[Emanresu]

That is why I prefer my old classic steel bikes. Most of the parts are standard size and interchangeable.

In manufacturing terms, the inverted pyramid. Lots of variety at the top of the pyramid from the small range at its base.

Coffee shops do the same.

 

[raleighnut]

I think going down the carbon fibre route would be far more expensive than you think. The would need the skilled people to design and then build the frames. They could probably buy in ready made carbon frame and badge them up.
They have taken on the previous skilled workers so they need to utilise their skills.
I think the whole industry needs a re think! A lot of the manufacturers have all gone down their own routes producing their own style and sizing where nothing is standardised and non interchangeable. It must be a nightmare trying to keep stocks of parts for bikes. That is why I prefer my old classic steel bikes. Most of the parts are standard size and interchangeable.

Unless it's a Raleigh, past masters at 'in-house' sizes or if they liked other companies they bought them out (Brooks and Sturmey Archer for example)

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good afternoon,

I beg your pardon?

I'd ask you to step outside if it wasn't for my back.

My intent was not to offend (your use of the angry icon) but neither was it to rewrite history.

I was brought up in an area where Aldershot, a traditional military town and Aldermaston and Harlow, the nuclear age, were very strong local employers. There were no Italian restaurants, the first one to try and open was covered with racist graffiti and then burnt down as there was still a strong association of Italy to Nazi Germany.

This may not be part of history that anyone would be proud of but that doesn't make it untrue.

I think going down the carbon fibre route would be far more expensive than you think. The would need the skilled people to design and then build the frames.

I am under no illusions that setting up cf facilities would be cheap however Mercian are in the business of making bike frames and if the market wants carbon fibre and doesn't want steel then there is no choice.

Maybe there is still a market for steel frames at a price that is profitable for a builder who is also an employer rather than a one man band/family business and acceptable to the customer, or maybe there isn't. But not offering bespoke cf frames because you can afford it, is not my problem as a customer/not a customer. :-)

There was once a huge bike firm called Raleigh that went down the badge engineering route, yet they had the SPD/SBDU who embraced new ideas and even had a carbon fibre frame on show at a trade show in the early 1970s. Okay it was cf tubes bonded into lugs, but management didn't invest and now it is Raleigh who?

Bye

Ian

 

[Jameshow]

I don't think they have an issue.i think they could diversify onto tig lugless frames like many bespoke frames.

Or they could buy frames from far east and rebadgee them like spa!

Plenty of scope for diversification...

 

[Illaveago]

Good afternoon,


My intent was not to offend (your use of the angry icon) but neither was it to rewrite history.

I was brought up in an area where Aldershot, a traditional military town and Aldermaston and Harlow, the nuclear age, were very strong local employers. There were no Italian restaurants, the first one to try and open was covered with racist graffiti and then burnt down as there was still a strong association of Italy to Nazi Germany.

This may not be part of history that anyone would be proud of but that doesn't make it untrue.



I am under no illusions that setting up cf facilities would be cheap however Mercian are in the business of making bike frames and if the market wants carbon fibre and doesn't want steel then there is no choice.

Maybe there is still a market for steel frames at a price that is profitable for a builder who is also an employer rather than a one man band/family business and acceptable to the customer, or maybe there isn't. But not offering bespoke cf frames because you can afford it, is not my problem as a customer/not a customer. :-)

There was once a huge bike firm called Raleigh that went down the badge engineering route, yet they had the SPD/SBDU who embraced new ideas and even had a carbon fibre frame on show at a trade show in the early 1970s. Okay it was cf tubes bonded into lugs, but management didn't invest and now it is Raleigh who?

Bye

Ian

The idea of going into a new field in which you know nothing about would be risky. They could buy in carbon frames but would have to ake sure of the quality so that it didn't damage their reputation.
With Raleigh it seems that management let them down . Ti sold off the company saying that making cycles wasn't a core part of their industry! I think the management saw it as a quick way of making some money.

 

[Emanresu]

Have a look at their accounts. They were losing money in 2022 when a couple of employees took over. Since the new management were unable to stem the tide, and likely had their homes on the line to the bank, they bailed out. There were no doubt plenty of skills but without cash to keep you afloat, or borrowed cash at an *affordable* rate then it's the end of the line.

The soon to be new owners have summed it up

We would like to take this opportunity to thank Grant and Jane Mosley, who took over from Bill Betton in 2002. Grant, a long-time Mercian employee who started at a junior level, together with Jane, continued this legacy with great passion and commitment, maintaining the high standards and dedication to excellence that have always defined Mercian Cycles.

 

[spiderman2]

I bought my Mercian from Beta Bikes in West End Lane, West Hampstead. They had several frames all hung up in various colours and sizes. That was in the late eighties. You'll never seen that again. My friend Clive still has it in Hampton and uses it regularly.

Ive got a Madison Revell from Beta Bikes that i am in the middle of restoring.I will post pics when finished.

 

[spiderman2]

Ive got a Madison Revell from Beta Bikes that i am in the middle of restoring.I will post pics when finished.

 

[Hover Fly]

Which could well be a Mercian, but others (Yates, Dean i.a.) built for them .

 

[fossyant]

I beg your pardon?

I'd ask you to step outside if it wasn't for my back.

Blooming commoners with their 531c, sheesh. Columbus SLX here. Even the cheap bike was 653.