Kevin Alexander
Veteran
Thats what my impression was after watching the recent film about him.
Marco Pantani -Il Pirata
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Thats what my impression was after watching the recent film about him.
Pro Tour Punditry
Guru
Prepare to find out how much help he had from an early stage in his career.I've just ordered a second hand copy of Matt Rendell's book. I'm not doubting that Pantani wasn't 100% naturally gifted. Not many people are. We all need help, in some way, shape or formIt's not just his cycling but his personality and the man himself that I am drawn to. The vast majority of well known/famous people are empty vessels, especially in the world of sport. The same can't be said for him.
The "man himself" (or at least the "cycling man" - and that is why we all know him, otherwise he'd have been "just another bloke") would have been nothing without performance-enhancing drugs.
A tragic figure. And a tragic story; a sporting life celebrated due to performance enhancing drugs; a life taken as he could not cope with the "betrayal" *
*others disagree with me on this one
Kevin Alexander
Veteran
Prepare to find out how much help he had from an early stage in his career.
The "man himself" (or at least the "cycling man" - and that is why we all know him, otherwise he'd have been "just another bloke") would have been nothing without performance-enhancing drugs.
A tragic figure. And a tragic story; a sporting life celebrated due to performance enhancing drugs; a life taken as he could not cope with the "betrayal" *
*others disagree with me on this one
Unfortunately I dont cycling at particular periods has ever been about natural ability, the majority of the peleton would have been on gear.
Nice to see the heat monitors checking for motor doping at the tour.
Pro Tour Punditry
Guru
Maybes aye, maybes naw - I'll provide my views on others as threads are started about them
What Rendell's book does lay out plain is that Pantani benefitted immensely from an early stage in his career from performance-enhancing drugs (even during his days as an amateur) and it's very likely, almost certain, he'll have been an unknown without them. As it stands he did use them and he became famous; the impact of the "reality" (or as Pantani would have it the "betrayal") was his death. Tragic.
Pantani is a rider who, most likely due to his fragility/vulnerability, attracts a great deal of continued awe despite (or maybe because of) the circumstances; an underdog who cheated to gain success is still a cheat, something which is lost on many. The cheat being an underdog is not lost on me.
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Having read a few things about Marco Pantani, it is quoted that when he was pulled from the Giro for the positive drugs test, he said "I'll show them what a drug addict looks like" and thats when he started on the cocaine, it was very easily available around Rimini at the time, and one of his colleagues said that after this fall, he won't get back up this time, I think that he was a fragile character, he was painfully shy and was embarrased about losing his hair at such a young age,and there was also speculation of mental illness, or that perhaps he was secretly gay, I think that he doped in order to keep up with all the others who doped, it was a case of doing what had to be done in order to stay in a job,it doesn't make it right but I think that is how it was, if you can get hold of The death of Marco Pantani by Matt Rendell do so, it's a good read
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migrantwing
Veteran
A great many have taken 'enhancements' in all sports. Some got caught, others didn't. As Ian H and DRM mention, maybe Pantani just followed suit as to what was the 'thing' at the time. A lot of athletes used Cocaine back in the day to give them a boost, even greats like Merckx, I'm sure I've read. Maybe it was Pantani's inscecurities that led him to put his trust in a coach saying, "You know what, if you want to be better than the rest, you need some help. Here, take this"? For some people, they'll do anything for fortune and fame, or put complete trust in someone, even if they think it may not be the right thing to do. There is a lot of speculation about the Mafia being involved and lots of money surrounding Pantani's wins and losses. When he turned professional, he even said to his mother, "It's like a Mafia".One thing I have to disagree with is, chemically enhanced help or not, Pantani was not 'just another guy' or an average cyclist. He was quite the philosopher at times, A very deep, spiritual man, one sadly that had his demons, too.
He was the only cyclist at that time to keep up with and beat Lance Armstrong on the Ventoux in 2000. Now, if he in fact was using Cocaine at that time, that is incredible. The effect of Cocaine, once taken, doesn't last long. The heightened stimulation is short, and the comedown is quick and intense, hence people keep taking it in large amounts. Pantani would have had to have been snorting it every 20-30 minutes or so, maybe more, for it to have helped him. He wasn't. So, he was riding at those times with, most probably, intense Cocaine withdrawal. Not easy to do anything, let alone ride a bike up a mountain and keep up with another top athlete who was juiced! I don't know if Pantani used EPO during the 2000 season either.
The point I'm trying to make is that Pantani, after struggling with past major injuries, a Cocaine habit and many other negative things in his life, for him to keep up with Armstrong on that famous Ventoux climb, PED's or not, is, in itself, quite a humbling thought. He was already a broken man by then, too.
Positive:
Andrea Tafi, Erik Zabel, Bo Hamburger, Laurent Jalabert, Marcos Serrano, Jens Heppner, Jeroen Blijlevens, Nicola Minali, Mario Cipollini, Fabio Sacchi, Eddy Mazzoleni, Jacky Durand, Abraham Olano, Laurent Desbiens, Marco Pantani, Manuel Beltran, Jan Ullrich (twice), Kevin Livingston
Suspicious:
Ermanno Brignoli, Alain Turicchia, Pascal Chanteur, Frederic Moncassin, Bobby Julich, Roland Meier, Giuseppe Calcaterra, Stefano Zanini, Eddy Mazzoleni, Stephane Barthe, Stuart O'Grady, Axel Merckx
He was the only cyclist at that time to keep up with and beat Lance Armstrong on the Ventoux in 2000. Now, if he in fact was using Cocaine at that time, that is incredible. The effect of Cocaine, once taken, doesn't last long. The heightened stimulation is short, and the comedown is quick and intense, hence people keep taking it in large amounts. Pantani would have had to have been snorting it every 20-30 minutes or so, maybe more, for it to have helped him. He wasn't. So, he was riding at those times with, most probably, intense Cocaine withdrawal. Not easy to do anything, let alone ride a bike up a mountain and keep up with another top athlete who was juiced! I don't know if Pantani used EPO during the 2000 season either.
The point I'm trying to make is that Pantani, after struggling with past major injuries, a Cocaine habit and many other negative things in his life, for him to keep up with Armstrong on that famous Ventoux climb, PED's or not, is, in itself, quite a humbling thought. He was already a broken man by then, too.
Positive:
Andrea Tafi, Erik Zabel, Bo Hamburger, Laurent Jalabert, Marcos Serrano, Jens Heppner, Jeroen Blijlevens, Nicola Minali, Mario Cipollini, Fabio Sacchi, Eddy Mazzoleni, Jacky Durand, Abraham Olano, Laurent Desbiens, Marco Pantani, Manuel Beltran, Jan Ullrich (twice), Kevin Livingston
Suspicious:
Ermanno Brignoli, Alain Turicchia, Pascal Chanteur, Frederic Moncassin, Bobby Julich, Roland Meier, Giuseppe Calcaterra, Stefano Zanini, Eddy Mazzoleni, Stephane Barthe, Stuart O'Grady, Axel Merckx
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migrantwing
Veteran
Prepare to find out how much help he had from an early stage in his career.
The "man himself" (or at least the "cycling man" - and that is why we all know him, otherwise he'd have been "just another bloke") would have been nothing without performance-enhancing drugs.
A tragic figure. And a tragic story; a sporting life celebrated due to performance enhancing drugs; a life taken as he could not cope with the "betrayal" *
*others disagree with me on this one
I think it's going a bit far to say that he would have been nothing without PED's! The man had a fire that is rarely seen. Yes, he may have been helped in various ways, but with all the major injuries he'd sustained in his career and illness etc, he was still something of a unique personality. You don't just take something and all of a sudden you can fly up Mount Ventoux...and win
The thing we'll never know for sure is that if he was coerced into a lot of things. He may have done certain things to be the best, he may have not wanted to do those things, but there was a lot of large charcters, large organisations and large money surrounding Pantani. If he was pushed to do certain things, I don't think he'd be in a position to argue, without having his legs broken...or possibly being murdered in a hotel room
We all know that a lot of Armstrong's team mates were in similar positions. Some of them went along willingly and, I'm sure, that others had their doubts, but doubt wasn't an option. Do it, or you're off the team. The black hand reaches to a lot of places.
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migrantwing
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migrantwing
Veteran
Pro Tour Punditry
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Well, he was "nothing special" until he started taking PEDs in his amateur days. So I am guessing he'd have been "nothing special" without PEDs in his pro days, and probably would not have become a pro had it not been for the improvements in his performance as a result of PEDs when he was an amateur. I don't think it's too far at all, there's a lot of "nothing special" cyclists who are still "above average" - Pantani benefitted in that the effect of PEDs on his body made him a great cyclist. There was some natural ability (bike handling), some fearlessness, some personality. All fuelled by PEDs and recreational drugs.
Anyway, have a read of Rendell's book.
T4tomo
Legendary Member
You seem to have conveniently forgot than anyone who was "special" in that era were on various forms of PEDs and Blood transfusions. EPO was more common than weetabix in those days.
He was a hell of talent, although fragile in a lot of ways and would have done more at the TdeF had he not been Italian and thus his sponsors insisting he ride the Giro every year.... He didn't really have 2 grand tours a year in him, yet is still the last man to do the double, although that was a strange old tour that year.....
Pro Tour Punditry
Guru
I'm forgetting nothing. You are either over-looking the fact he was a cheat or accepting that as EPO was common then it was ok to cheat - you are also over-looking the fact that the effect on EPO is not the same for everyone, it can turn a donkey into a racehorse.
As I said earlier, if there is a thread started about anyone else who attracts admiration and who was a doper I'll make sure to join in. As it is, the thread is about Pantani.
