Looking after elderly parents

[biggs682]

I have POA as it was signed over to me a few years ago not sure if both were or just one.
Thankfully both are in reasonable health for 90+ and can do most of the looking after each other on a daily basis.
Technology is daunting for them but then it is for us at times.
The rest of the family are a 2 HR drive away but might as well be in Australia.

 

[fossyant]

We did POA as soon as FIL died for MIL as she wanted nothing to do with Finances. That was over 8 years ago and we were also looking after FIL before he passed. It's been tough TBH as they wewre local, so someone round every day, and we managed to keep MIL, who had mobility issues (limited) in her home for 5 of those 8 years, before it was just not possible to keep her at home, so we had to move her into a nursing home (zero mobility and needing hoists). Took a while to sort finances and even got more complicated when she went into a Nursing Home.

She was somewhat demanding and everything needed doing there and then, but she was an exceptionally kind hearted person. She passed 6 months ago, when unfortunately we did need to use POA as such to withdraw medical treatment - that was a horrendous week that she took to pass.

We've got a bit of a break now, but we'll soon be into looking after my folks who are approaching late 70's.

 

[I like Skol]

when unfortunately we did need to use POA as such to withdraw medical treatment - that was a horrendous week

That was exactly the kind of situation I was dreading. Having to make the DNR call is probably slightly easier, but having to make the decision to withdraw support/treatment is very tough. I guess only you can know when it is getting to the point where they would not want you to keep fighting a lost cause. LPA/POA's should not be entered into lightly or with your eyes closed. They are serious responsibilities.

 

[chris667]

You can register them yourself, it isn't massively complicated, you just need to pay the fees and get appropriate signatories/witness's.

As a member organisation of the IPW (my former professional body), I was involved in the consultation process that led to LPAs being created and in the course of career drafted approximately 3000 LPAs. On my retirement insurance now so I can't comment on individual people's circumstances, but here is some background and general pointers if you're interested.

Their predecessor the EPA was open to all sorts of abuses and the test for capacity to do one was based on the Wills Act 1837 which isn't really appropriate - the Mental Capacity Act 2005 accepts that people have capacity at some times and not others. And that EPAs had no safeguarding in them at all. It was thought that nearly 30% of EPAs were used for some sort of financial abuse. Countless dodgy solicitors made a great living from drafting an old lady's EPA then setting up a standing order from their bank account to pay them a hundred quid a week.

They were designed to be easy to fill out, and you can even do them online at the OPG website. It was a classic "designed by committee document" - every month we met up in a conference centre in Birmingham to discuss issues that had come up in its development, and the form got longer. It started out as 7 pages, then went to 14, 21, and at one point 44. It's somewhere in the middle now.

The thing about LPAs is while they are easy for a layperson to draft, the law and some of the issues around them are extremely complicated. The forms themselves have options that can make the LPAs unusable once they are registered. We were very careful to point out that the forms themselves say you should always ask for legal advice before filling one out. And it is one of those things that can't be changed when you need it to be. It was never a nice conversation when someone called me for advice on an LPA when one of the joint attorneys had died, for example.

If I was a layperson writing an LPA for a parent I would much rather pay someone to do it for me. They will ask the right questions to make sure the LPA is going to work when you need it. Avoid a solicitor who will have the meter running, you should go to somewhere that has a fixed price and will do a meeting. An IPW member should not charge more than about £250+registration fee per LPA, and if you shop around it will be cheaper again. But don't go too cheap. Less than £200 is not enough to pay for the time to draft one correctly and give you an unhurried interview where you ask all the right questions. If your parent has issues with memory it might still be possible for them to draft an LPA - but you must see someone with the training to understand the issues.

Besides which, a professional will be able to work out if you're eligible for fee remission, which can potentially pay for a good chunk of their fee.

Not meaning to start an argument @I like Skol but that's my considered opinion based on my career in the legal trade. And this is the Internet, so I'm going to tell everyone whether any of you asked me or not.

With regards to withdrawing treatment in the case of Health & Welfare LPAs - ultimately in the end it is always a medical decision. However donors can choose whether to allow attorneys to make decisions around life-sustaining treatment or not. And it is important to make the distinction between life-sustaining treatment and euthanasia. LPAs have nothing to do with that at all.

That's the bit everyone thinks about, it's not the important bit. Not at all. Where Health & Welfare LPAs come into their own is when your parent is being looked after. I used to revisit an old lady every year or so (I didn't need to but she was such good fun I did them for free after a few years!). She was really interesting - a Jewish lady who fled Czechoslovakia as a teenager in 1941. Had fantastic stories and she was incredibly stylish. All her clothes, furniture etc were immaculate and expensive. I will never forget the last time to see her after she'd lost her mental capacity (the day I decided I couldn't take a Will instruction from someone I'd known for years was always one of the hardest visits to their family). She had carers in and instead of her deisgner suit, she was wearing an awful easycare polyester dress that she'd have been embarrassed to wear. If her sons had a Health and Welfare LPA, they could have insisted that she was in clothes that she would have liked to wear. Quite a small decision but really important for dignity.

I am sorry to hear about your mum-in-law, @fossyant .

 

[palinurus]

Another advocate of POA here, I hold all three types (Property, Financial and Health). I've used it relatively few times really but it's good to have it.

It's does differ from company to company how they deal with it, some want me to send them pictures of the docs, some want copies and one place just took my word for it and registered me on the account🤔

Same, except I've used the POAs a lot. The financial one I have covers property. My mother has dementia and a few years back was reading her card number to anyone who called her on the phone, she had a pile of boxes of supplements, herbal teas, expensive insurance for electrical items of low value. It was relatively easy to sort things out with a POA.

Although my mother and I had put the POA in place some years before she did not accept or understand it once it was enacted (except occasionally; she once told me she had a power of attorney 'for when she goes doolally-bonk'). She is now in a care home, selling her flat was pretty straightforward with the POA- there were a lot of organisations to deal with- the managing agents, solicitors, estate agents, utilities ...

I've had the same experience with the degree of proof required.

And the health and welfare one I've used a lot too- various hospital stays, the GP, the local care agency, the local memory service, social services, the care home of course. Many procedures require approval- every covid vaccination for example.

 

[oldwheels]

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

Two LPA types in England & Wales, might be different for Scotland and N.I?

You can register them yourself, it isn't massively complicated, you just need to pay the fees and get appropriate signatories/witness's.

The health and welfare LPA is perhaps the most daunting one to fulfil if it becomes needed (although you can always step back and leave decisions to medical professionals if it is too much for you).

The financial LPA is just handy for allowing you to act on their behalf even when they are still of sound mind, it essentially makes you an authorised agent on their behalf so you can place contracts, access funds, pay bills etc without needing their signature or presence. However, it does not protect you from action if you mismanage their finances for personal gain, fraudulently or illegally.

There are 2 LPA in Scotland and as the aged parent they are set up in favour of my only remaining son and his wife. Done by a lawyer as it can get very complicated if not correct.

 

[fossyant]

I did the POA's for Sandra's mum - OK I wasn't on it, but I did the on-line registering with Govt Gateway. It was a little time consuming and needed 4 document's signing by witnesses - one cocked up a signature so just had to re-print that page then go round again to get the signature. It's a lot of ink and paper, just loads to fill in and check. Thing is, MIL couldn't afford to pay for solicitors at the time as her money was a bit tied up when FIL died (accounts went on hold - not joint etc. The fees were reduced as she was on disability benefits - again another thing we had to sort out for her. All the household bills were in FIL's name and she point blank refused to deal with it, even when on the phone to, say British Gas, MIL was refusing to listen, so we'd go through the details with the company, then pass the phone to her whilst they said something, and we said 'say yes'. We really should have put this in place before FIL died.

At least we had POA in place before she went into a nursing home etc. We've still got the house and are in the process of selling it, but there are long delays with probate processing. So, actually, we've not got a break as the house still needs clearing. We're fortunate we are all local, but getting 'the sisters' together on one day is proving difficult.

 

[Mo1959]

Reading some of your posts, I’m just glad my dad and stepmum who both died at age 89 within 2 years of each other kept their mental faculties right to the end. It was illness and old age that carried them off.

I did quite a bit of running back and forward when they needed help and lots of medical appointments, clinics, hospital and care home visits but thankfully it was just a 30 mile round trip so not too bad. My brother sat back and did nothing to help and I eventually fell out with him and don’t speak to him or his family now, so when it comes time for old age or illness to hit me, I’ll just need to deal with it myself.

 

[I like Skol]

As a member organisation of the IPW (my former professional body), I was involved in the consultation process that led to LPAs being created and in the course of career drafted approximately 3000 LPAs. On my retirement insurance now so I can't comment on individual people's circumstances, but here is some background and general pointers if you're interested.

Their predecessor the EPA was open to all sorts of abuses and the test for capacity to do one was based on the Wills Act 1837 which isn't really appropriate - the Mental Capacity Act 2005 accepts that people have capacity at some times and not others. And that EPAs had no safeguarding in them at all. It was thought that nearly 30% of EPAs were used for some sort of financial abuse. Countless dodgy solicitors made a great living from drafting an old lady's EPA then setting up a standing order from their bank account to pay them a hundred quid a week.

They were designed to be easy to fill out, and you can even do them online at the OPG website. It was a classic "designed by committee document" - every month we met up in a conference centre in Birmingham to discuss issues that had come up in its development, and the form got longer. It started out as 7 pages, then went to 14, 21, and at one point 44. It's somewhere in the middle now.

The thing about LPAs is while they are easy for a layperson to draft, the law and some of the issues around them are extremely complicated. The forms themselves have options that can make the LPAs unusable once they are registered. We were very careful to point out that the forms themselves say you should always ask for legal advice before filling one out. And it is one of those things that can't be changed when you need it to be. It was never a nice conversation when someone called me for advice on an LPA when one of the joint attorneys had died, for example.

If I was a layperson writing an LPA for a parent I would much rather pay someone to do it for me. They will ask the right questions to make sure the LPA is going to work when you need it. Avoid a solicitor who will have the meter running, you should go to somewhere that has a fixed price and will do a meeting. An IPW member should not charge more than about £250+registration fee per LPA, and if you shop around it will be cheaper again. But don't go too cheap. Less than £200 is not enough to pay for the time to draft one correctly and give you an unhurried interview where you ask all the right questions. If your parent has issues with memory it might still be possible for them to draft an LPA - but you must see someone with the training to understand the issues.

Besides which, a professional will be able to work out if you're eligible for fee remission, which can potentially pay for a good chunk of their fee.

Not meaning to start an argument @I like Skol but that's my considered opinion based on my career in the legal trade. And this is the Internet, so I'm going to tell everyone whether any of you asked me or not.

With regards to withdrawing treatment in the case of Health & Welfare LPAs - ultimately in the end it is always a medical decision. However donors can choose whether to allow attorneys to make decisions around life-sustaining treatment or not. And it is important to make the distinction between life-sustaining treatment and euthanasia. LPAs have nothing to do with that at all.

That's the bit everyone thinks about, it's not the important bit. Not at all. Where Health & Welfare LPAs come into their own is when your parent is being looked after. I used to revisit an old lady every year or so (I didn't need to but she was such good fun I did them for free after a few years!). She was really interesting - a Jewish lady who fled Czechoslovakia as a teenager in 1941. Had fantastic stories and she was incredibly stylish. All her clothes, furniture etc were immaculate and expensive. I will never forget the last time to see her after she'd lost her mental capacity (the day I decided I couldn't take a Will instruction from someone I'd known for years was always one of the hardest visits to their family). She had carers in and instead of her deisgner suit, she was wearing an awful easycare polyester dress that she'd have been embarrassed to wear. If her sons had a Health and Welfare LPA, they could have insisted that she was in clothes that she would have liked to wear. Quite a small decision but really important for dignity.

I am sorry to hear about your mum-in-law, @fossyant .

I was happy I understood what I was filling in and confident that I would have the authority to do what was needed should the situation arise, but as suggested above, if in any doubt seek professional help/advice. You really don't want to find out later that you got it wrong.

 

[oldwheels]

In my case it cost £450 to set up PoA for myself and we used the solicitors which DIL family had used for years.
You should also have a conversation with the family about how you expect to be treated if taken into care.
Clothing for example.
My sister was outraged when she went to visit our mother in the care home that she was wearing clothing which was clearly not her own.
My wife went into respite care to give me a break very occasionally. I discovered that they had no concept of separating clothing after washing. When I went to collect her the wardrobe contained enough clothing but only about half of it was her own as they just counted out any garments which came to hand. This caused her some distress.
That may seem slightly different from full time but the principle still applies.

 

[tom73]

The outlaws have just been putting things in place for older age now they are both over 75. Mrs having been named on LPA for medical matters and her bother for the finances. So she's likely to find out one day what it's like to have to do things.

I never got to the stage of looking after older parents both mine died at 65. But I did take on looking after an Aunty who was very fond of my Dad so in many ways did it for him. She'd gone past capacity so had no option but go though the court of protection and be appointed by and answerable to the court. A very long and much harder road than LPA and more complex. Submitting annual accounts to the court being one example.

The hardest part of caring for others is working though and coming up against the system. Even though both me and Mrs 73 know our way round it. We still found it hard going the vast majority of professionals within try hard but they are mostly wading though treacle.
If you need support they are placers that can help and provide an advocate I used one when up against a total cow of psychiatrist.
Who was so shocking and lacked any caring ability in one meetings was so bad Mrs 73 left the room in tears.
At times it get's hard but be ready to hold fast , stay calm and push on it's not easy going but once every thing is in place it becomes easier all round

 

[Deleted member 1258]

The outlaws have just been putting things in place for older age now they are both over 75. Mrs having been named on LPA for medical matters and her bother for the finances. So she's likely to find out one day what it's like to have to do things.

I never got to the stage of looking after older parents both mine died at 65. But I did take on looking after an Aunty who was very fond of my Dad so in many ways did it for him. She'd gone past capacity so had no option but go though the court of protection and be appointed by and answerable to the court. A very long and much harder road than LPA and more complex. Submitting annual accounts to the court being one example.

The hardest part of caring for others is working though and coming up against the system. Even though both me and Mrs 73 know our way round it. We still found it hard going the vast majority of professionals within try hard but they are mostly wading though treacle.
If you need support they are placers that can help and provide an advocate I used one when up against a total cow of psychiatrist.
Who was so shocking and lacked any caring ability in one meetings was so bad Mrs 73 left the room in tears.
At times it get's hard but be ready to hold fast , stay calm and push on it's not easy going but once every thing is in place it becomes easier all round

I agree with you about the system, often its like banging your head against the wall.

 

[steveindenmark]

We took Jannies parents out for a meal last night for their wedding anniversary. They are both in their 80s. It was good fun. They were fitted for hearing devices last week. We cant wait until they arrive. 🙂 We visit several times a week and always have coffee and cake.

 

[Jameshow]

My elderly parents drove 100 miles to see my eldest sister, first since covid I don't think she was too impressed!🤣🤣🤣❄️❄️❄️

 

[biggs682]

Lots of good comments and advice here.
I raised the subject of Christmas last night and I think I opened a hornets nest .