left turn on red - Johnson is an arse

[dellzeqq]

a long time ago the distinguished cycling campaigner, Mr. Nuttycyclist, told me that ASLs would get people killed. He pointed to the little green bits on the left of the road leading in to ASLs.

I couldn't see it. Now I can. Another two women have been crushed by left turning lorries, and that follows a desperate year in London, in which all but one of cycling deaths were caused by lorries, and most of those turning left.

It's as plain as plain can be that going on the left side of lorries is dangerous. And yet, the egregious Johnson is proposing a change to the law which will allow cyclists to turn left on red lights. Nothing like encouraging people, particularly the least experienced cyclists, to do the very thing that is most likely to get them killed in London.

The CTC has dismissed this as a gimmick. I think it's worse than that. It's going to get people killed.

Can I suggest that, if you live in London, you e-mail your MP and implore him or her not to support this?

The majority of lorries running over cyclists are construction lorries. If you do e-mail your MP you might also mention that while the HSE swans about building sites acting the arse when somebody picks up a 20k block, they don't give a monkeys about the safety of construction activity off site. They must take on this responsibility. Construction companies only react to regulation - they don't give a flying **** otherwise.

CML, the bunch of halfwits who wrote the transport plan for the Olympics were asked to make fresnel mirrors on the off side compulsory for all construction traffic serving the Olympic site - they refused point blank. Had those mirrors been fitted to the vehicle that turned left at Goswell Road the driver would have seen the cyclist. The LCC, having pressed the case for fresnel mirrors are meeting the DfT to make the case again. One can only wish them well.

 

[Flying Dodo]

Had those mirrors been fitted to the vehicle that turned left at Goswell Road the driver would have seen the cyclist. The LCC, having pressed the case for fresnel mirrors are meeting the DfT to make the case again. One can only wish them well.

They'd only help if the driver bothers to look in their mirrors anyway. Better driver education to be more aware of smaller road users would be a better thing. However, I'd agree that making the installation of fresnel mirrors compulsory would be a start.

O/T slightly, I remember about 15 years ago out here in the sticks, buses started having them in their back windows. I've suddenly realised none of the current buses have them now.

 

[dellzeqq]

indeed. There is absolutely point in pretending that cyclists don't do daft things. Absolutely none. I've twice seen cyclists undertake bendybuses on left turns - and survive only by the grace granted the bus drivers by many years experience.

We have to look at what happens and ask ourselves - in this imperfect world, what is for the best? And good sense suggests that inviting cyclists to undertake is just plain dumb.

 

[Flying Dodo]

Of course I've always been a fan of the American system of being able to turn right (in their case) on red. But that of course is another argument.

 

[byegad]

Boris is on another planet yet again. For an allegedly clever fellow he does a good impersonation of being thick!

 

[TimP]

You could do it by putting a bypass of the junction for cyclists as this ought to take them out of the way of everything. A bit like this junction here: Consider the left turn from travelling south to travelling south east.

But without junction modification I don't think this will be a safe plan. The transition process is going to be dangerous.

Though I have a nagging feeling that the people who will undertake and get caght on the left hand side of vehicles are the same goup as those who currently do so. Hence not much change in behaviour may result to start with.

 

[dellzeqq]

bypass junctions are really iffy
1. The re-joining point is effectively a stop sign
2. They collect grot and debris
3. They're horrible for pedestrians

 

[gavintc]

Well, personally I support this idea. I have no issue with ASLs and use them all the time. A left on red works in many other countries quite successfully and would I suggest also work well for cars as well as bikes. I know that we have numpties who go up the inside of buses and trucks, but that is an education issue.

 

[TimP]

bypass junctions are really iffy
1. The re-joining point is effectively a stop sign
2. They collect grot and debris
3. They're horrible for pedestrians

1. Give way, which is no worse than the proposed left at red, but very clearly defined.
2. Yup, like all cycle provision or just close into the edge of the road, only use if you have robust tyres.
3. I don't think they are any worse than a traffic light controlled junction which has islands.

They can work in certain circumstances, and where these would not work there is certainy no place for a cyclist to be turning eft at a red light.

 

[bonj2]

let me guess, you thought it was already the law and you did it and got pulled for it , only to find out it wasn't

 

[bonj2]

Seriously though, maybe a distinction should be drawn between turning left on red when you're already at the front, and undertaking in order to get to the front so you can turn left.
It's all about education. Maybe it could be used to get cyclists to understand that they absolutely mustn't undertake lorries - as in, "look, we're giving you this, but in return you've got to promise NOT to undertake!"
Would that work at all?, or is allowing cyclists to turn left on red just going to provide more incentive to undertake no matter whether/how much education you provide alongside?

 

[tdr1nka]

After spending a lot of time in the USA I used to wonder why we didn't do the same here.
If it is only cyclist who get to do this then all well and good but I'm of the mind that there needs to be a lot of educating drivers and cyclists for this to be workable.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

It'll be just another way to foster resentment between cyclists and car drivers. Odds on many car drivers understanding the legality of cyclists going through red lights, anyone?

 

[bonj2]

After spending a lot of time in the USA I used to wonder why we didn't do the same here.
If it is only cyclist who get to do this then all well and good but I'm of the mind that there needs to be a lot of educating drivers and cyclists for this to be workable.

possibly because turning left in the USA means going against the flow of traffic


igmc

 

[jonesy]

It'll be just another way to foster resentment between cyclists and car drivers. Odds on many car drivers understanding the legality of cyclists going through red lights, anyone?

I agree; for that reason it would be very difficult to grant a general left turn exemption just for cyclists; and if it were allowed for motor vehicles as well as cyclists it would greatly add to the dangers faced by pedestrians and further reduce the already inadequate crossing provision on many busy roads, even where a pedestrian phase is included in the junction signals. It would permit vehicles to turn across pedestrian crossings when the pedestrians have the 'green man', which would require a radical change in attitudes amongst drivers. I know this does happen in parts of Europe, but that is associated with an acceptance of the need to give way to pedestrians crossing side roads that doesn't exist in this country.

It may be worth exploring exemptions at individual junctions on a case by case basis, e.g. with special signs and road markings, but that is a different thing from a general change in rules at traffic lights.