Leeds trolley buses

[661-Pete]

Sorry I still don't get it. So the only difference between a trolley bus and a tram is the lack of rails? Or are there rails? If so, why not use a tram? It won't derail

No rails. Ordinary wheels with tyres, and the vehicle is steered with an ordinary steering wheel. As I said, it can be steered quite a long way to either side of the overhead wires before the risk of de-wiring. I have even seen a film (not seen it in real life) showing how a trolley could execute a 3-point turn in the road, even without the aid of a turning circle built into the wires. It sounds unbelievable, but it can be done! Of course this was not normal operation on a scheduled route: normally at the end of a route a turning circle would be installed...

Certainly I don't recall any broken-down trolleybus causing significant obstruction in the city centre - no more so than any other large vehicle. The buses were very reliable.

Whereas: I recall coming across the aftermath of a tram becoming de-railed in a busy city centre street. This was in Budapest, but could have happened in any city in the world which operates trams. Snarled up all the traffic over a large part of the city, whilst they had to bring in cranes and heavy lifting gear to shift it. And bear in mind: this brought all the traffic to a halt, not just the tram traffic...

 

[StuartG]

Trolleybuses have so many advantages over trams. Starting with the much lower infrastructure costs since they only have to add the overhead cable. All the other infrastucture is shared. No changes at road level are necessary. I believe the buses are cheaper and simpler than diesel so displacing diesel buses is easy.

Rubber tyres mean little sound - not the earsplitting metal on metal screeching on tight curves of trams. And no tram tracks to get caught in. Financially new trams (cf Croydon/Nottingham) have been generally regarded as disasters. Even the construction phase is traumatic.

Trolleybuses offer a much better passenger experience than diesel buses. Quieter, faster, vibration free. They give no on-street pollution and the CO2 emissions are much lower in electricity production than diesel burning. The disadvantages are the difficulty of temporary re-routeing in case of road works (doesn't seem to have been a problem 50 years ago!) and the complexity of interchanges of multiple routes. Which is why you may never see them again in central London but appear to be the public transport of choice in many smaller european cities today.

 

[skrx]

Trolleybuses have so many advantages over trams.

It's probably worth mentioning advantages of trams: smoother ride, longer vehicles possible (presumably a higher capacity), and a little more efficient.

I think trolleybuses are only positive to cyclists: no on-street pollution, nicer than diesel buses (so hopefully less cars).

I don't know Leeds, but can you take a bike on the current buses anyway? And would it ever be faster? (Round here it's 'no' and 'no'.)

 

[661-Pete]

Financially new trams (cf Croydon/Nottingham) have been generally regarded as disasters. Even the construction phase is traumatic.

My wife can testify to that! She had occasion to visit Croydon several times in the 1990s when the tramway was being built, she told me it was absolute mayhem. Of course, now that the tramway has finally been built and is in operation...

The disadvantages are the difficulty of temporary re-routeing in case of road works (doesn't seem to have been a problem 50 years ago!) and the complexity of interchanges of multiple routes.

They can get round most roadworks so long as they don't entirely block the street. And complex unsightly junctions will probably be replaced in the next generation, by battery-backed buses able to run short distances off-wire, with automatic seek mechanisms to re-wire.

Which is why you may never see them again in central London but appear to be the public transport of choice in many smaller european cities today.

And not only smaller cities! The main urban transport system in Beijing (no trams) and Moscow (very limited tram network).

 

[andyfromotley]

It's probably worth mentioning advantages of trams: smoother ride, longer vehicles possible (presumably a higher capacity), and a little more efficient.

I think trolleybuses are only positive to cyclists: no on-street pollution, nicer than diesel buses (so hopefully less cars).

I don't know Leeds, but can you take a bike on the current buses anyway? And would it ever be faster? (Round here it's 'no' and 'no'.)

Dont know if you can, possibly a liitle quicker in quiet times. I was thinking about people who arent into cycling so much, perhaps taking a bike to complete the last mile of their journey.

currently when i use the cycle lane down headingly to leeds i dont get overtaken by buses, usally the opposite in fact. mainly due to how many stops they make. But if there were to be fewer stops then that may change. If they are determined to speed up these trolley buses i can see cyclists being excluded on the grounds...well theyre holding us up!

 

[661-Pete]

Probably the trolleybuses will be used on routes with frequent stops placed close together, because that's where they score over other vehicles. They do not have a high cruising speed but can out-accelerate both trams and diesel buses.

They're also very good on hills.

 

[jonesy]

Trolleybuses have so many advantages over trams. Starting with the much lower infrastructure costs since they only have to add the overhead cable. All the other infrastucture is shared. No changes at road level are necessary. I believe the buses are cheaper and simpler than diesel so displacing diesel buses is easy.

Yes, this is a huge cost saving. Not only do trams require the installation of expensive track into the road surface, but services below the tracks need to be diverted out of the way, which I believe often costs more than the cost of laying the track.

Rubber tyres mean little sound - not the earsplitting metal on metal screeching on tight curves of trams. And no tram tracks to get caught in. Financially new trams (cf Croydon/Nottingham) have been generally regarded as disasters. Even the construction phase is traumatic.

Rubber tyres aren't as energy efficient of course, and tracks restrict the vehicle to a much narrower corridor so it can be easier to accommodate trams into pedestrianised areas for example, or to find space for segregated routes on verges, central reservations, disused railways etc. And there is the potential for conversion of heavy rail routes, or shared-use tram-train running, which can't be done with buses. I wouldn't agree that existing systems are regarded as financially disastrous- Nottingham's system has been very successful and they are going to extend the network; likewise Manchester.

Trolleybuses offer a much better passenger experience than diesel buses. Quieter, faster, vibration free. They give no on-street pollution and the CO2 emissions are much lower in electricity production than diesel burning. The disadvantages are the difficulty of temporary re-routeing in case of road works (doesn't seem to have been a problem 50 years ago!) and the complexity of interchanges of multiple routes. Which is why you may never see them again in central London but appear to be the public transport of choice in many smaller european cities today.

Well, as ever the short-sightedness of 1960s Britain is so apparent here, isn't it; and sadly the current approach to transport policy still insists that the rest of Europe (and indeed parts of the US) is wrong and that investing in good public transport is poor value for money...

One interesting development that is becoming apparent is the technological convergence between different public transport modes: diesel buses are starting to incorporate hybrid technology which offers many of the benefits of the trolleybus, while trolleybuses are starting to use back-up power sources so they can run of the wires like conventional buses. And for all types of bus there are bus priority and guided-bus technologies, helping them to avoid traffic congestion and so provide an advantage over car travel. There's even the bus that runs on rails...

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2008/05/half-bus-half-t/

 

[661-Pete]

I vaguely remember reading, in the Telegraph & Argus, one or two oh-so-confident remarks from Bradford city councillors or officials, uttered in the final months before the network closed down in 1972. Approximate quotes:

"They are prone to de-wiring, re-routing is complex, and spare parts are unobtainable".
"They're not really in keeping with the image of the modern Bradford we want to put across, now, are they?"

And so the diesel replacements came in. At the time motor fuel was ridiculously cheap - IIRC petrol was about 30p a gallon (7p/litre ) and diesel even less. A little over a year later we had a major international oil crisis on our plate (anyone remember Sheikh Yamani?) and a Middle-east war. Petrol shot up astronomically, there were queues at filling stations, and threats of rationing.

Eating their words, perhaps?

 

[Bromptonaut]

I also fondly remember Bradford's trolley buses. Never rode on one there but have a distant memory of using one in Stalybridge or Aston u Lyne aged about 5 in the mid sixties. Silent, smooth and very rapid initial acceleration.

 

[ColinJ]

Silent, smooth and very rapid initial acceleration.

That'll be even more pensioners falling over before they can get to their seats then!

 

[StuartG]

Errr ... no. Trollies don't have gears so you get steady acceleration and not that kangaroo feeling which is what whips you off your feet. Well that and the Mackeson secreted in every pensioners thermos ...

May be that's why I keep falling off my Brommie. The hub gears, not the thermos

 

[661-Pete]

That'll be even more pensioners falling over before they can get to their seats then!

I was once, many years ago, sent sprawling in a bus - but not a trolley, an ordinary diesel bus. I'd rung the bell for my stop and was walking forwards to the door, then the bus driver realised he was pulling up at the wrong stop for his route, the correct one was about fifty yards further. So he accelerated away from the stop again.

Meanwhile a van had overtaken the bus, and the driver, believing that the bus was stopping, had pulled in sharply in front of the bus. The bus rammed the back of the van and I was flung to the floor. I was not best pleased, to put it mildly, and had 'words' with the bus driver. I was a young student in those days and wasn't hurt: if I'd been a doddery old pensioner it'd have been a hospital trip and a hefty lawsuit against the bus company to boot.

I gave my name as a witness, to the white van man, on that occasion my sympathies were with him. But I never heard from him again.

 

[chap]

So how would you rate trolley buses against biofuel driven ones, like those in Sweden?

 

[jonesy]

So how would you rate trolley buses against biofuel driven ones, like those in Sweden?

Biofuels...?? Aargh!

Trolley buses: quiet, comfortable, good acceleration and performance on hills, low maintenance, zero emission at point of use, ability to use renewably generated electricity.

Biofuels: no advantage over diesel in noise, emissions, vibration, maintenance etc, often little or no CO2 benefit over fossil fuel diesel because of the energy involved in fertilising and producing the crop. Worse still: biofuel production competes with food production and biodiversity, with the criminal absurdity of Indonesian rainforest being cut down to grow palm oil to meet European biofuel targets, even though the net result is increased CO2 emissions. Sadly biofuels were seized upon by politicians and the car industry as a way to cut CO2 without requiring anyone to change their behaviour, encouraged by a farming lobby always keen to find new ways to get subsidies, and have become a major threat to food supplies and biodiversity while distracting resources from real measures to cut CO2:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7007238.ece

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/11/06/an-agricultural-crime-against-humanity/

 

[ASC1951]

I used to go home everday on one from Willenhall to Wolverhampton.

Yes, I can remember using the trolley buses in Walsall bus station too - I think we had some of the last ones in the country, didn't we Stuart? They weren't very popular in the 60s.

Many years later I worked for the West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive and they were always twining on about trams. Not trolleys, which were far more sensible - it was the rails that obsessed them. It was rather depressing how many of the Board had their attics converted to trainsets.