Leeds trolley buses

[andyfromotley]

Leeds is apparently going to get trolley buses. hmmmmn.

Apart from the quite startling fact that this is going to cost £30m per mile of route, (seems an enormous amount of money) my initial reaction is that this cant be great news for cyclists?? Any thoughts and if it is happening should cyclists be pushing for anything in particular to meet their needs in relation to trolley buses?

One of the proposed routes runs down from lawmswood through hyde park into the city. My daily commute and a very popular cycling route nto leeds.

andy

 

[661-Pete]

Well, you can't please everyone, and I can't deny having a lot of enthusiasm for the things, but I say, go for it!

How can taking diesel vehicles off the city streets and replacing them with electric ones, be a retrograde step? Even if the power has to ultimately come from somewhere, i.e. a power station, surely that increases our options! Don't we welcome it when our diesel trains are supplanted by electric (when are they going to replace the diesels that still ply out of Paddington I wonder)?

Plus points: many times better and safer than trams, as far as cyclists are concerned: no deadly flush rails to swallow your wheels! And cheaper - I don't know how representative the £30m is, but if it includes supplying the vehicles, well it seems realistic - you don't get Public Transport for nowt!

Minus points: well it does seem that they want to bring in articulated or even doubly-articulated vehicles. Which may be a bit scary. But exactly the same might happen if they stayed with diesel - as we've seen in some cities overseas. The important thing is, if the driver is properly trained and drives responsibly, especially when overtaking a cyclist or other vehicle, I don't see a problem any worse than we get with rigid buses (lots of problems with those!).

Silent operation: well, some will see this as a plus, some as a minus. I have seen trolleys overseas that appear to have a noise-making device on them - possibly to alert pedestrians or cyclists. Maybe the answer.

 

[marinyork]

I've not read it, but if it is double articulated vehicles that's some of the tram problems all over again. If it was the original trolley buses I think it'd be less of an issue.

I don't think the silence will be a problem, tram drivers use their horn (that can be heard a mile away here) illegally and very aggressively.

The main thing is for safety signs, make the trolley buses as small as possible and make sure that any trolley bus gates don't exclude cyclists.

 

[andyfromotley]

Are they manoeuvrable enough pete? Can they move out far enough to pass cyclists safely or are they limited by the electic hook up?

Will they operate in current bus lanes and will they still allow cyclists in them?

Can they take bikes on board? You obviously have an interest in them and i confess to ignorance, i am just wary of changes that might impact upon us.

 

[marinyork]

Will they operate in current bus lanes and will they still allow cyclists in them?

That's what you have to make sure of. There are a number of bus/tram gates here. Two of the tram gates allow cyclists in whereas the other two do not.

 

[marinyork]

Seen the photo, looks like an FTR version of the trolley bus. Worry like hell.

Also really pull them up on the "prioritised junctions" because this can clobber cyclists too.

 

[661-Pete]

Well, most of the arguments that have been put against trolleybuses are arguments against buses in general. Either we abolish buses in toto, or we look into ways of living with them. There certainly shouldn't be any more problems with bus lanes, than we experience with existing buses.

Trolleybuses are almost as manoeuvrable as diesel buses, as long as they stay on route! (even this last is not necessarily a 'must', some modern vehicles have sufficient battery reserve that they can go off-wire a considerable distance). They can steer quite a long way to either side of the wires without derailing. Unlike trams which are utterly fixed. They cannot overtake each other if they're on the same wires, but that's a minor point.

 

[marinyork]

Well, most of the arguments that have been put against trolleybuses are arguments against buses in general. Either we abolish buses in toto, or we look into ways of living with them. There certainly shouldn't be any more problems with bus lanes, than we experience with existing buses.

Not really. I don't and never had that many problems with standard bus drivers. FTR though I had daily encounters of aggressive driving. Long articulated buses are a very different and threatening kettle of fish. I'd agree if we weren't talking about the fad there is for these sorts of things. Trolley buses of normal length would be fine.

As for bus lanes, like I said you have to make sure new ones include cyclists. Various bits of schemes like this always try to exclude cyclists. If they are excluded make sure they don't have long run rounds, their own facilities if needed etc. Looks like the NGT is going to get a bit of separate stuff, in that case they should probably do some segregated cycleways next to some busy roads if it is needed/wanted.

 

[StuartG]

The good thing will be less diesel fumes in your face. it might also be a good time to push for cycle provision on the new buses. It has to really be done at spec/build time. Very difficult to retrofit.

Multi-modal transport has to be our long term aim if we are going to really popularise cycling.

But just be thankful for some real investment in public transport. Helps make the car more an option than a necessity.

 

[andrew-the-tortoise]

We had 'em in Rotherham [well before my time though]. They were known as 'the trackless' for obvious reasons - no lines to slip or get stuck in!


View attachment 5960

 

[orienteer]

Afraid I'm old enough to remember trolleybuses in London, until 1962. Environmentally preferable due to the lack of noise and fumes, otherwise similar to buses.

Only ever experienced one problem: following one round Highbury Corner roundabout, the trolley booms dewired, shot up and smashed a street lamp, and all the glass came down just in front of me on my bike!

 

[StuartG]

I used to go home everday on one from Willenhall to Wolverhampton. The roundabout at Willenhall was a complex affair as there were three different routes through it with assorted points etc. The conductor (in these pre H&S universe) would leap off the bus run forward and tug an arm on the lampost to throw the points. If he didn't get it right or bumped into a pedestrian the collectors would come off the wires.

Everything ground to a halt. The long pole used to push the collectors back on was kept under the bus in a tube that looked like an exhaust pipe. It was about 20ft long and could only be removed when all the traffic on the island had backed away to leave enough space. A delicate exercise.

Then one year all the electric buses were swopped for diesel and the diesel trains swopped for electric. I could never quite figure that one out. Except diesel was a lot slower than electric. The acceleration on an old trolley bus was really impressive.

 

[661-Pete]

I used to go home everday on one from Willenhall to Wolverhampton. The roundabout at Willenhall was a complex affair as there were three different routes through it with assorted points etc. The conductor (in these pre H&S universe) would leap off the bus run forward and tug an arm on the lampost to throw the points. If he didn't get it right or bumped into a pedestrian the collectors would come off the wires.

Everything ground to a halt. The long pole used to push the collectors back on was kept under the bus in a tube that looked like an exhaust pipe. It was about 20ft long and could only be removed when all the traffic on the island had backed away to leave enough space. A delicate exercise.

Then one year all the electric buses were swopped for diesel and the diesel trains swopped for electric. I could never quite figure that one out. Except diesel was a lot slower than electric. The acceleration on an old trolley bus was really impressive.

Well remembered. The long pole you refer to was known as a 'fly-shunt' and the pull (rather like a loo-chain) which the conductor had to operate to change the points, was known as a 'frog' (though that term was also used to refer to the points mechanism itself).

The busier points ('frogs') were electrically operated by a relay, rather than a hand-pull. Whether the relay actuated or not, in other words whether the bus took the left or right branch, was controlled by the driver depending on whether his bus was drawing current or coasting as it approached the junction.

I remember watching - in Bradford - with admiration, the skill with which one trolley-driver got his bus out of an awkward situation. He had come to one of these junctions and stalled just at the crossing-point. There has to be an insulated section just where the positive and negative wires cross, of course, to avoid a short-circuit. Anyway his bus was completely immobilised and without battery support it was stranded. Out hopped the driver, grabbed the fly-shunt and transferred the pole which was on the insulated section, to the outer wire of the junction, which was not insulated. He now had his poles on wires going different ways, one left and one right, but was able to advance the bus a few yards as his poles 'did the splits'. Then out he came again and transferred the errant pole to the correct wire, no longer insulated. I felt like bursting into applause. His passengers probably did, too. But I suppose it all comes in the training.

Meanwhile, here's a link for those wanting to wallow in nostalgia.

 

[StuartG]

Meanwhile, here's a link for those wanting to wallow in nostalgia.

10 minutes across west London and not a single roadworks and it seems a virtually pothole free paradise.

Our Wolverhampton or Walsall corporation trolleybuses were only 4 wheel (some of the Walsall ones did have concertina doors). I do remember under heavy load the relays sometimes popped out on the hills. No problem - the handle was just behind the driver's head. He would hold the lever down to re-engage the relay with both arms while steering the bus with his knee. And I don't think they had power steering ... this is the type:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bGaOPrl0vM


Of course only posh cyclists had sturmey-archer 3 speeds to get them up the same hills ...

 

[chap]

Sorry I still don't get it. So the only difference between a trolley bus and a tram is the lack of rails? Or are there rails? If so, why not use a tram? It won't derail