Landis 'fesses up?!

[Landslide]

...my involvement in the Cult of Lance ended when he failed to win on his comeback. What a loser.

Ha!

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Yeah, but you said 'the media' (if you're going to accuse others of generalisation...). And I certainly don't get the impression that there is an anti-Armstrong bias in the media in general - very much the opposite. But it's clear that those journalists who know about cycling have deep suspicions.

This is a cycling forum. So when I say media I don't mean 'Top Gear' magazine. I'm could not care less about what Heat magazine or Hello or some Sunday lifestyle supplement has to say about him.

I'm talking about him, and what the media have to say about him, as an athlete/competitor. I don't give a feck what he has, or they have, to say about about what he does off, and unrelated, to the bike; that's just the usual "this week's Messiah" / "build 'em up and knock 'em down" celeb obsessed nonsense.

Sections of the French sporting press, generally more expert in cycling matters than all but a very few UK journo's, have been on his case for a very long time yet others, now proven to be dopers, have escaped their attentions. He has never been caught, yet others have been found with their pants round their ankles, get their wrists splapped and are allowed back to compete again.....

I find that all a bit odd, and I find it odder still that anyone who says "innocent until proven guilty, by the standards and tribunals of the sport" is accussed of being part of the Cult of whatever.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

He is thoroughly nasty towards them - witness Simeoni.

Why do you think that might be? Can you construe a position where a clean competitor might think another speaking out about drugs is less than contructive and possibly even harmful to a sport?

 

[yello]

I was reading an old thread when I came across this comment...

I can't help wondering if him being nice to Landis is because Floyd has some dirt on him from the USP days

("him", in that context, being Lance Armstrong)

I guess any such truce is now over! Oh, and I draw particularly draw your attention to the post that followed the above...

Cute theory. However, I don’t think that Landis or any other ex-Postie/Disco rider could possibly have anything strong enough to do any damage. The only exception would be Hincapie, perhaps. His cult has become so strong and there is so much history now that even if Landis published video of himself and LA sipping on homologous Type O and knocking back EPO cocktails the day before a team TT he would still be dismissed as just another jealous hater with a grudge. Team LA would do a hatchet job on him, the fanboys would never, ever accept anything that cast aspersions on their hero and the whole thing would be rapidly obscured in a cloud of ink from the lawyers. Nothing, and I do mean nothing short of a personal confession, and maybe not even that, would have any real impact.

 

[mangaman]

Why do you think that might be? Can you construe a position where a clean competitor might think another speaking out about drugs is less than contructive and possibly even harmful to a sport?

This is crazy - of course I can't condone a rider criticising another for even talking about doping. Are you saying the "omerta" is justified?

What about Bassons who was clean and had his career ruined by Armstrong for writing about it just after the Festina affair (and actually being verbally abused during the 1999 tour by Lance while Lance's 1999 test turned out to be positive for EPO!)

I think L'Equipe is anti Lance for that reason. It's not anti-American.

Greg Lemond is very popular there. as is Hincapie.

It doesn't just go after Lance either - the whole French sting which caught Ricco et al at the TDF was warmly applauded by L'Equipe

 

[yello]

Greg Lemond is very popular there. as is Hincapie.

Actually, as is Armstrong... just not with certain sections of the media and cycling fraternity.

 

[rich p]

I was reading an old thread when I came across this comment...



("him", in that context, being Lance Armstrong)

I guess any such truce is now over! Oh, and I draw particularly draw your attention to the post that followed the above...

Blimey, what prescience!!!

Thanks Yello

 

[Flying_Monkey]

This is crazy

Of course it is.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Of course it is.

More shrewd incisive analysis of a complex problem.

Mangaman, Flying Monkey, go read some of the comments made over the years by professional rugby league and rugby union players and administrators. Maybe even draw a conclusion or two about the sheer lack of comment.

I didn't say omerta was justified, but clearly in the minds of many clean sportsmen it is preferable to the alternatives.

 

[mangaman]

More shrewd incisive analysis of a complex problem.

Mangaman, Flying Monkey, go read some of the comments made over the years by professional rugby league and rugby union players and administrators. Maybe even draw a conclusion or two about the sheer lack of comment.

I didn't say omerta was justified, but clearly in the minds of many clean sportsmen it is preferable to the alternatives.

Sorry- I'm not interseted in rugby. What conceivable connection has it got to this thread anyway?

Can you justify your claim a clean cyclist - eg Bassons ( the reason I return to him is because the Festina team, under oath, testified he was the only clean rider in the team )

Why would a clean rider prefer the omerta? It doesn't make any sense at all.

Imagine in your job 60% of employees are cheating - eg fiddling expenses.

You aren't. Apart from cowardice, what moral position could you come up with if you had evidence your colleagues were lying and thieving, and decide to say nothing - not just costing your employer, but also yourself, as you would earn less?

 

[Crackle]

Actually, as is Armstrong... just not with certain sections of the media and cycling fraternity.

Yes, I was surprised to find Frenchmen cheering him at the roadside and in bars, I thought he was universally disliked by the French but not at all.

 

[mangaman]

Yes, I was surprised to find Frenchmen cheering him at the roadside and in bars, I thought he was universally disliked by the French but not at all.

Come on crackle - don't ruin Greg's conspiracy theory with 1st hand accounts of real people

 

[Flying_Monkey]

More shrewd incisive analysis of a complex problem.

I was simply agreeing with Mangaman, as well you know. You appear to lack the knowledge of professional cycling or the good faith necessary to debate this issue as you are ignoring any of the specific issues raised by him, by me or by anyone else, merely asserting, selectively quoting, and misreading, and then trying to twist around to other sports entirely. It is you who should deal with the issues in cycle racing (you know the subject of the forum) raised here, not demand that others deal with rugby!

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I was simply agreeing with Mangaman, as well you know. You appear to lack the knowledge of professional cycling or the good faith necessary to debate this issue as you are ignoring any of the specific issues raised by him, by me or by anyone else, merely asserting, selectively quoting, and misreading, and then trying to twist around to other sports entirely. It is you who should deal with the issues in cycle racing (you know the subject of the forum) raised here, not demand that others deal with rugby!

Fly away monkey boy, you have no idea what my knowledge of pro bike racing is or what my good faith does or does not extend to.

I hope if I'm ever unfortunate enough to be in the dock then the jury members will be a little more sensitive the rules of evidence than the anti-LA camp are.

 

[Crackle]

Greg, if you go back, you'll find a lot of stuff discussing Armstrong. Here's one I picked out because it was one I was involved with and one where I've defended him. As an admirer of Armstrong it's been a slow and bitter realisation for me that this could be more than conjecture, rumour and bad blood.

Within that thread is a link to an extract of LA confidential written by Walsh. I did read the whole book after finding it on the internet, those links are now gone but there's a fair amount of discussion about it and his follow up book and the whole question of doping and blood tests and it's not hard to find, difficult to make sense of but not hard to find.