Lance Armstrong, love or loathe, in 2019

[Smokin Joe]

I'm sure he regrets the 'comeback' with Astana, but he's recently said that he'd do nothing different (that might be the interview in the OP, but I'm at work so I can't watch it) so maybe not.

I would imagine that he meant that - given the same set of circumstances - he'd do the same again. Those circumstances being a good cyclist coming to Europe and finding himself losing against good cyclists who were doping. As much as I'd like to pretend that I wouldn't dope, if my choice was a short career making up the numbers as a badly paid junior rider in a second division team, or winning stuff and getting better paid over a longer career, I think I'd choose the latter. The sheer number of top cyclists from that era who have admitted taking drugs, or were caught taking drugs, suggests that realistically you couldn't win without doping. That's a hard thing to come to terms with when you've committed to being the best you can be, especially as to do that you need to be a competitive, driven person anyway.

I guess if he'd not cheated, his cycling career would have lasted a few years, and he'd have gone back to Texas and done a normal job and become bitter and angry about being cheated out of his cycling career. As it is, he stood on the top of the podium in Paris seven times and has a reported $50 million. So at this stage, it would seem that he made the best choice for him, if not the sport. And yes, I am aware that by doing what he did, he ensured that other talented cyclists who would not dope had short careers and then couldn't get a ride.

Good post.

I've always said that if I'd been a pro in those days or before I'd almost certainly have doped, unless I had the natural ability to thrive without doing so. For a rider to go from outside the European mainland pre performance plan and Sky meant packing your bags and slumming it in a country where you didn't know the language or the culture in the hope that you would fight your way through the thousands of other contestants to land a pro contract - with an unsympathetic team who'd put a boot up your arse when it ended if you hadn't performed. Most cyclists who took that route had nothing to come back to, they had lived for the sport since they first bought a bike and had nothing in the way of qualifications or a trade. Returning after having not made it would be fairly humiliating, having to face clubmates and families who'd spent your two years boasting about how one of their own had "Made it".

And all the time the team doctor and other riders are assuring you that what was available to enhance your performance was perfectly safe, and anyway, "Everyone was doing it". Even the authorities were turning a blind eye. It would have taken a saintliness far in excess of anything I possess (And most of the vocal anti-dopers, despite what they like to think) to have said "Non", and got the ferry back to the job at Dagenham bunging suspension legs on Cortinas.

 

[steveindenmark]

He is a low down snake who was happy to ruin others careers, threaten and intimidate, because he wasnt man enough to put his hands up.

He is the absolute worst face of cycle sport and should not be able to make another penny from anything to do with cycling.

 

[Milkfloat]

I would have doped too, but I would not have been such a c*** about it. I would like to think I would have been a David Millar kind of cheat.

 

[Dogtrousers]

If I had been a pro cyclist I would have been so good I wouldn't have needed to cheat.

Hey if you're going to change the past you may as well make a good job of it.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

I believe he thought he was invincible and that the rules did not apply to him, sounds like another American in a position of power

That wouldn't be the only resemblance. He was being lined up by Republicans for a run at the Governorship of Texas, and I am pretty sure that his ambitions would not have stopped there. So we may have been spared President Armstrong at least...

 

[david k]

He definitely has a personality disorder of some type. He cannot accept he has done anything wrong, regrets being caught, blames others for the situation and seeks retribution.

But something about these personality types that draw others in, they are winners and they struggle with rejection, not winning is rejection. They often have a high degree of emotional intelligence meaning they can easily manipulate others and enjoy doing so, those they can't they dismiss. We see lots of that in his riding days, black and white thinking, your with me or against me attitude. They know how to be charming, and use it to their advantage but can turn if they don't get their own way.

I find him fascinating interesting and like to hear him in interviews, but I don't like him or people with his personality, the corporate world is full of them, stepping on others to climb the ladder, people who are weak will latch onto them, people with integrity will confront them and be pushed out, if they have a fall like in his case others are happy to witness the 'bully' fall from grace, the hangers on desperately try to put distance between them.

So yes we do tend to get the love or loathe attitude towards these personality types, either way they are interesting and good media

Can you think of other people with this personality trait/s either personally, professionally or in the media?

 

[Edwardoka]

He definitely has a personality disorder of some type. He cannot accept he has done anything wrong, regrets being caught, blames others for the situation and seeks retribution.

But something about these personality types that draw others in, they are winners and they struggle with rejection, not winning is rejection. They often have a high degree of emotional intelligence meaning they can easily manipulate others and enjoy doing so, those they can't they dismiss. We see lots of that in his riding days, black and white thinking, your with me or against me attitude. They know how to be charming, and use it to their advantage but can turn if they don't get their own way.

I find him fascinating interesting and like to hear him in interviews, but I don't like him or people with his personality, the corporate world is full of them, stepping on others to climb the ladder, people who are weak will latch onto them, people with integrity will confront them and be pushed out, if they have a fall like in his case others are happy to witness the 'bully' fall from grace, the hangers on desperately try to put distance between them.

So yes we do tend to get the love or loathe attitude towards these personality types, either way they are interesting and good media

Can you think of other people with this personality trait/s either personally, professionally or in the media?

Personally, not so much. I naturally tend to distance myself from confident or self-assured people. Possibly an alpha male thing (of which I am most certainly not) or a defence mechanism against aggressive behaviour (grew up on a sink estate, survival instinct)

Professionally, yes, a couple of times. The most obvious was in a certain electricity supplier, someone I worked with ruined many people's career prospects at that place, she tried to undermine people at every turn while claiming to be a team player, and when, try as she might, she couldn't break a system that someone else had put in place, she claimed credit for it. Pure sociopathy. I know of several people who quit because of her.

In the media, I think it's probably quicker to list the people who don't have these personality traits.

 

[david k]

Personally, not so much. I naturally tend to distance myself from confident or self-assured people. Possibly an alpha male thing (of which I am most certainly not) or a defence mechanism against aggressive behaviour (grew up on a sink estate, survival instinct)

Professionally, yes, a couple of times. The most obvious was in a certain electricity supplier, someone I worked with ruined many people's career prospects at that place, she tried to undermine people at every turn while claiming to be a team player, and when, try as she might, she couldn't break a system that someone else had put in place, she claimed credit for it. Pure sociopathy. I know of several people who quit because of her.

In the media, I think it's probably quicker to list the people who don't have these personality traits.

That's very interesting and imo typical. I've met several and one that stands out. His need for control was bizarre and extreme. He ran a department, there were several line managers and I was one. I was up and coming, eager and highly regarded as the next in line, that was enough for him to target me. Other managers who didn't have aspirations were left to do what they want, but he micro managed me, I went along with it, assuming that it would pay off eventually, hoping my reasoning would make him reconsider his approach. This was a mistake, he saw it as a soft touch and increased the control, over time this ruins your confidence as you stop making decisions without approval, question your own thoughts and decisions and self esteem is affected. This then starts to affect your performance and he had me were he wanted me, I tried numerous things but all failed. I dropped down the pecking order and eventually when he was sacked(nobody shed a tear!) my position wasn't as strong as it was, in fact I'd say it was tainted with all the issues I had.

I was eventually down graded in a re structure and I just sat back and coasted until another opportunity elsewhere opened up, luckily it did and I'm in a great position currently, so it did pay off in the end but I wouldn't let it happen again. I would confront it immedialty and pay any consequences as the long game may have worked but took several years of stress. I'm now a manager and this experience I believe helps me so not all bad.

Long was of saying theses personality types don't reason, don't have empathy but do have a gift for knowing your emotions and when to use them, this is Lance all day long and he won't change. I actually think he knows he is like this but kind of accepts it's him

 

[Milzy]

If Lance Armstrong had not been a high profile pro. Let’s say an English man from Ilkely cycling club. He wouldn’t have got the experimental cancer treatment which saved his life. It’s likely on the NHS he would have died. So the wrongs he did saved his life.

 

[cyberknight]

If Lance Armstrong had not been a high profile pro. Let’s say an English man from Ilkely cycling club. He wouldn’t have got the experimental cancer treatment which saved his life. It’s likely on the NHS he would have died. So the wrongs he did saved his life.

Although it could be argued that the cocktail of stuff he was taking could have lead to the cancer taking hold just as there seems to be a number of pros dieing with heart problems atm.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Massive and unscrupulous ego still seeking redemption.....

 

[slowmotion]

His doping wasn't ideal, but plenty of others were at it too. What really singles him out as a despicable human being is the determination and ruthlessness with which he attempted to destroy the reputations and businesses of those who stood in his way. That's unforgivable.

 

[Milzy]

Massive and unscrupulous ego still seeking redemption.....

IMO Only David Millar achieved redemption. Nobody else ever will.

 

[mustang1]

Hes a nob ed ……. hes desire to win by cheating you mean

I thought everyone in tdf would have a desire to win or they wouldn't be in that race in the first place.

Everyone in that era cheated but Lance was a lot more assertive. If it's the assertiveness and bullying we don't like, then we should call him out, and we do. But to single him out as the only cheater is missing the overall picture, imho?

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I've been thinking about this since I posted about a month ago.

I still hate him.