Keto Diet

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The Jogger

Legendary Member
Location
Spain
If i may. I have been on a weight loss journey for 6 months. I didn't really look too much into Keto, Juicing, Soup or Pillock diets... I just cut out breads, starch and refined breakfast cereals. I eat porridge with a spoon of honey and sultanas every morning and only occasionally eat pasta and increased veggie intake. I never even considered this a fad diet, just i though it was a common sense approach due to what others eat on diets. I first picked up on this thread a few weeks back and i did some reading and wondered. I since ordered some pee sticks that measure Ketones and it turns out there is slight colour on the stick indicating mild Ketosis. Im very surprised at this. I don't eat high fat at all, the opposite in fact. I don't snack at all, i will simple eat a piece of fruit straight after my meal and then gulp a a load of water which fills me up. Having lots of weight to lose im assuming is the reason why im inadvertently in ketosis but i feel alright, saying that i can't necessarily say i have been in Ketosis for 6 months, im probably dipping in and out of it but i will monitor it from now on purely out of interest...
What you seem to have done is cut down a bit on your carbs, although still eating some. If it works for you and you feel good then it's good. How much weight have you dropped?
The problem with this thread is you get some people on here calling other peoples choice of eating , a fad diet.
In reality I choose to cut crap (imo) like bread, pasta, spuds and eat things like cheese, cream, fatty cuts of meat, pork belly, sirloin with fat on and salads or veggies. Because this goes against the so called norm or food pyramid, it's a fad diet or even dangerous.
It's good that people share what works for them without the diet police stepping in. Complicating simple steps, with high brow science when in reality it's simple science. Bullet proof type coffee for example, butter, coconut oil and coffee whipped up, staves off hunger, gives energy without eating or raising insulin, again down to choice.
Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.
 
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Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Location
Kirton, Devon.
Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.
No there is no argument unless you can demonstrate an oddity it the laws of thermodynamics. Anything else is semantics and obfuscation.
What you seem to have done is cut down a bit on your carbs, although still eating some. If it works for you and you feel good then it's good. How much weight have you dropped?
The problem with this thread is you get some people on here calling other peoples choice of eating , a fad diet.
In reality I choose to cut crap (imo) like bread, pasta, spuds and eat things like cheese, cream, fatty cuts of meat, pork belly, sirloin with fat on and salads or veggies. Because this goes against the so called norm or food pyramid, it's a fad diet or even dangerous.
It's good that people share what works for them without the diet police stepping in. Complicating simple steps, with high brow science when in reality it's simple science. Bullet proof type coffee for example, butter, coconut oil and coffee whipped up, staves off hunger, gives energy without eating or raising insulin, again down to choice.
Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.
This perfectly demonstrates your point! It has been eaten, it can't give energy otherwise! You can see where confusion reigns....

The other issue regarding 'fad/alternative' diets is that whilst they may well cure one problem i.e weight-loss, they may cause myriad other problems regarding cancer, inflammation, cholesterol, osteoporosis etc. etc. These things take a long time and a lot of research and data to asses. Because somebody plucks some experience or research out of the air, creates a great story and sells it as the next best thing doesn't mean it's healthy in the long term. That's why skepticism should rightly abound - Because A. Celeb feels great on Goji Berries, fag-ends and Colonic irrigation does not make it a basis for anything. That's why diets should be denounced as fads until there is some longer-term and solid 3rd party reviewed evidence to support it.

The role of Insulin which we have been discussing on and off for example has now been studied by sufficient august bodies over a long enough period of time to draw a pretty firm conclusion over it's importance in regulating blood sugar, driving excess towards fat synthesis (and some other effects). Right now I don't think there is much dispute over it having a significant role in Obesity and weight-loss.
It might be the same with Keto. We understand the basic mechanisms of what it does and how, the short-term effects are fairly well documented in terms of weight-loss etc, effect on blood cholesterol etc. etc. What i think is still not known are the longer term effects or impacts of such a diet on wider society.
I can assure you, that if any nation or peoples found a provable long-term magic bullet diet to pitch to its citizens that kept them healthier and reduced the health burden on the state, they would be rushing towards it.

But look around, there are advocates with 'science' for Keto, Vegan, low carb, LCHF, LF, Paleo, Mediterranean, FODMAP, WW, Atkins, The Zone Diet, Food Combining, the 5:2 Diet, The Dukan Diet, the South Beach Diet etc, they can't all be right (except potentially in Insulin management)....but there adherents can 'prove' that they not only work, but are long-term sustainable, healthy and will let you live trouble free until forever....

I simply advocate caution and try to frame the 'Science' in some kind of reality..
 
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HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
I think that is a very practical and sustainable way forward.
It still allows you to enjoy a wide range of foodstuffs (for the pleasure of eating) and replacing refined foods with more veggies is a very good thing. I’m not convinced that high fat is a requirement at all, though it does aid satiety and dampens the rate of sugar uptake by the body which reduces insulin spikes -a good thing which everybody agrees.
How is the weight loss going?
How do you feel?
What you seem to have done is cut down a bit on your carbs, although still eating some. If it works for you and you feel good then it's good. How much weight have you dropped?
The problem with this thread is you get some people on here calling other peoples choice of eating , a fad diet.
In reality I choose to cut crap (imo) like bread, pasta, spuds and eat things like cheese, cream, fatty cuts of meat, pork belly, sirloin with fat on and salads or veggies. Because this goes against the so called norm or food pyramid, it's a fad diet or even dangerous.
It's good that people share what works for them without the diet police stepping in. Complicating simple steps, with high brow science when in reality it's simple science. Bullet proof type coffee for example, butter, coconut oil and coffee whipped up, staves off hunger, gives energy without eating or raising insulin, again down to choice.
Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.
I am 20 stone 4 now. Started at 27 in August. Still obese of course but I dont feel it. I'm fitter due to exercise but my muscles had clearly adapted to moving a big heavy lump about. I feel extremely well and energetic which encourages me to do more and more. My weight loss has been quite steady and at a pace I'm happy with, naturally it is slowing down but that is to be expected. I went in knowing I was lowering carbs, but I did that also knowing that high Insulin levels and resistance that typically accompany big people slows down weight loss and in fact will do the opposite. Ketosis wasn't even on my radar. But seemingly it has played a factor and I can only say that I feel good, energetic and have a positive state of mind. I wonder if its down to having a large amount of weight to lose. I'm clearly burning body fat for energy. Quite interesting all this and I'm keen to learn more...
 

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Location
Kirton, Devon.
I am 20 stone 4 now. Started at 27 in August. Still obese of course but I dont feel it. I'm fitter due to exercise but my muscles had clearly adapted to moving a big heavy lump about. I feel extremely well and energetic which encourages me to do more and more. My weight loss has been quite steady and at a pace I'm happy with, naturally it is slowing down but that is to be expected. I went in knowing I was lowering carbs, but I did that also knowing that high Insulin levels and resistance that typically accompany big people slows down weight loss and in fact will do the opposite. Ketosis wasn't even on my radar. But seemingly it has played a factor and I can only say that I feel good, energetic and have a positive state of mind. I wonder if its down to having a large amount of weight to lose. I'm clearly burning body fat for energy. Quite interesting all this and I'm keen to learn more...
Congratulations, that's about a stone a month! Wow, that's good going :-) Feel inspired!
 
OP
OP
Bill Gates

Bill Gates

Guest
Location
West Sussex
No there is no argument unless you can demonstrate an oddity it the laws of thermodynamics. Anything else is semantics and obfuscation.

This perfectly demonstrates your point! It has been eaten, it can't give energy otherwise! You can see where confusion reigns....

The other issue regarding 'fad/alternative' diets is that whilst they may well cure one problem i.e weight-loss, they may cause myriad other problems regarding cancer, inflammation, cholesterol, osteoporosis etc. etc. These things take a long time and a lot of research and data to asses. Because somebody plucks some experience or research out of the air, creates a great story and sells it as the next best thing doesn't mean it's healthy in the long term. That's why skepticism should rightly abound - Because A. Celeb feels great on Goji Berries, fag-ends and Colonic irrigation does not make it a basis for anything. That's why diets should be denounced as fads until there is some longer-term and solid 3rd party reviewed evidence to support it.

The role of Insulin which we have been discussing on and off for example has now been studied by sufficient august bodies over a long enough period of time to draw a pretty firm conclusion over it's importance in regulating blood sugar, driving excess towards fat synthesis (and some other effects). Right now I don't think there is much dispute over it having a significant role in Obesity and weight-loss.
It might be the same with Keto. We understand the basic mechanisms of what it does and how, the short-term effects are fairly well documented in terms of weight-loss etc, effect on blood cholesterol etc. etc. What i think is still not known are the longer term effects or impacts of such a diet on wider society.
I can assure you, that if any nation or peoples found a provable long-term magic bullet diet to pitch to its citizens that kept them healthier and reduced the health burden on the state, they would be rushing towards it.

But look around, there are advocates with 'science' for Keto, Vegan, low carb, LCHF, LF, Paleo, Mediterranean, FODMAP, WW, Atkins, The Zone Diet, Food Combining, the 5:2 Diet, The Dukan Diet, the South Beach Diet etc, they can't all be right (except potentially in Insulin management)....but there adherents can 'prove' that they not only work, but are long-term sustainable, healthy and will let you live trouble free until forever....

I simply advocate caution and try to frame the 'Science' in some kind of reality..
On that basis we should all do nothing except maintain the status quo and carry on our merry way unless or until we die or there is absolutely no doubt as what we should all do for our diet. That's never going to happen.

The thing that annoys me and Jogger is this label of a fad diet. It implies that we are flakey individuals with some sort of hippy back ground smoking cannabis. let me remind you that the premise of the diet re Prof Time Noakes was tested in a court of law, not once but twice. You are suggesting that some of the diets, including keto, may cause cancer and other conditions. On the contrary by avoiding foods (carbs) that cause inflammation to the body you are preventing cancer and other conditions from developing. How could you face a loved one in 5 years who (heaven forbid) had developed cancer and say if only we had gone wit the keto diet.

These philosophical, wise, all seeing words of wisdom all sound very good but do nothing for me I'm afraid. I'm a pragmatist first and last.
 

Hacienda71

Mancunian in self imposed exile in leafy Cheshire
No there is no argument unless you can demonstrate an oddity it the laws of thermodynamics. Anything else is semantics and obfuscation.

This perfectly demonstrates your point! It has been eaten, it can't give energy otherwise! You can see where confusion reigns....

The other issue regarding 'fad/alternative' diets is that whilst they may well cure one problem i.e weight-loss, they may cause myriad other problems regarding cancer, inflammation, cholesterol, osteoporosis etc. etc. These things take a long time and a lot of research and data to asses. Because somebody plucks some experience or research out of the air, creates a great story and sells it as the next best thing doesn't mean it's healthy in the long term. That's why skepticism should rightly abound - Because A. Celeb feels great on Goji Berries, fag-ends and Colonic irrigation does not make it a basis for anything. That's why diets should be denounced as fads until there is some longer-term and solid 3rd party reviewed evidence to support it.

The role of Insulin which we have been discussing on and off for example has now been studied by sufficient august bodies over a long enough period of time to draw a pretty firm conclusion over it's importance in regulating blood sugar, driving excess towards fat synthesis (and some other effects). Right now I don't think there is much dispute over it having a significant role in Obesity and weight-loss.
It might be the same with Keto. We understand the basic mechanisms of what it does and how, the short-term effects are fairly well documented in terms of weight-loss etc, effect on blood cholesterol etc. etc. What i think is still not known are the longer term effects or impacts of such a diet on wider society.
I can assure you, that if any nation or peoples found a provable long-term magic bullet diet to pitch to its citizens that kept them healthier and reduced the health burden on the state, they would be rushing towards it.

But look around, there are advocates with 'science' for Keto, Vegan, low carb, LCHF, LF, Paleo, Mediterranean, FODMAP, WW, Atkins, The Zone Diet, Food Combining, the 5:2 Diet, The Dukan Diet, the South Beach Diet etc, they can't all be right (except potentially in Insulin management)....but there adherents can 'prove' that they not only work, but are long-term sustainable, healthy and will let you live trouble free until forever....

I simply advocate caution and try to frame the 'Science' in some kind of reality..
I suspect for the average man in the street somewhere in the middle is best as per the findings in the report in The Lancet in 2018.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext
 

vickster

Legendary Member
On that basis we should all do nothing except maintain the status quo and carry on our merry way unless or until we die or there is absolutely no doubt as what we should all do for our diet. That's never going to happen.

The thing that annoys me and Jogger is this label of a fad diet. It implies that we are flakey individuals with some sort of hippy back ground smoking cannabis. let me remind you that the premise of the diet re Prof Time Noakes was tested in a court of law, not once but twice. You are suggesting that some of the diets, including keto, may cause cancer and other conditions. On the contrary by avoiding foods (carbs) that cause inflammation to the body you are preventing cancer and other conditions from developing. How could you face a loved one in 5 years who (heaven forbid) had developed cancer and say if only we had gone wit the keto diet.

These philosophical, wise, all seeing words of wisdom all sound very good but do nothing for me I'm afraid. I'm a pragmatist first and last.
What about the link between processed meats and cancer? Does keto specifically exclude the consumption of these as a diet that has been "proven" to reduce the risk of cancers?
The World Health Organization has classified processed meats – including ham, salami, bacon and frankfurts – as a Group 1 carcinogen which means that there is strong evidence that processed meats cause cancer.
 
OP
OP
Bill Gates

Bill Gates

Guest
Location
West Sussex
What about the link between processed meats and cancer? Does keto specifically exclude the consumption of these?
The World Health Organization has classified processed meats – including ham, salami, bacon and frankfurts – as a Group 1 carcinogen which means that there is strong evidence that processed meats cause cancer.
Don't believe it as it is a proven flawed study. Bacon salami bring it on. Lovely

edit; you need to delve more deeply into this study as have I
 

vickster

Legendary Member
Don't believe it as it is a proven flawed study. Bacon salami bring it on. Lovely
On what basis is it flawed? Or do you simply believe it to be flawed as that justifies you in eating processed meat?
 
OP
OP
Bill Gates

Bill Gates

Guest
Location
West Sussex
On what basis is it flawed? Or do you simply believe it to be flawed as that justifies you in eating processed meat?
sorry you missed my edit. I looked into this study some time ago and read up on how it was perceived by scientists and doctors. I'm not going to bother with it again.
 

vickster

Legendary Member
sorry you missed my edit. I looked into this study some time ago and read up on how it was perceived by scientists and doctors. I'm not going to bother with it again.
According to the WHO, an analysis of 800 studies was done
https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

Have you also done your own thorough meta analysis of these and come to a different conclusion to 22 global experts...interesting
 
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OP
Bill Gates

Bill Gates

Guest
Location
West Sussex
Ah I wrongly assumed your evangelism was supported by your own scientific research and expertise :unsure:
Nitrates are what is used in the processing of bacon and salami and Ham etc.
I have first hand experience of consuming nitrates. When I was in hospital following my heart attack I was prescribed nitrates. When metabolised Nitrates form Nitric Oxide and this dilates the blood vessels reducing blood pressure. We consume substantial amounts of nitrates from vegetables which is where vegetarians get their nitrates from. So we actually consume far more nitrates from vegetables than from bacon et al.

So consuming nitrates is actually very good for us.

Now for the carcinogenic WHO bit. Remember our old friend DR Ken D Berry introduced to us by Classic doo daa.

Right at the end of this video clip (which I watched months ago) he deals with the flaws in the study.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ygs2j0v0sU
 
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