Is black cycling gear dangerous?

[psmiffy]

This is why HiViz is so laughable.

I have 3,000 lumens of lights atthe front of the trike, and 300 at the back.

If they can't see those (and some don't) then HiViz is pointless

Anecdote time – I was driving along a very busy wide single carriageway in the dark the other morning and came across a cyclist with the most wonderful array of mutli lux lights (very bright rear lights - head and saddle height) – trouble is he was wearing black – it was impossible to distinguish his lights or him from the stream of traffic until the car immediately in front of me cleared him – being a good chap there was a very good gap between me and the vehicles in front so it was not a problem – however, most drivers do not leave that sort of gap.

Not long afterwards on the same piece of road I came across a hi-viz ninja – it was easy to pick him in the gaps in the traffic ahead of me due to the retro reflective nature of his hi – viz.

Hi-viz does work and so do lights – common sense is that in certain circumstances a combination of both is prudent.

Personally unless visibility conditions are bad I do not wear hi viz in the daytime or for general urban cycling after dark - however if the visibility is marginal or the traffic is nasty then I do not hesitate to deploy it - certainly in the daytime in preference to lights – and after dark in conjunction with lights. Its horses for courses - not all situations or lighting conditions are the same.

And as an aside your comment that hi-viz is “laughable” decries both your intelligence – and that of the many cyclists and non-cyclists that know categorically that good quality hi-viz is an important tool in being safe on the roads.

 

[Alun]

Yes.

There are some flaws in the compilation and whether reporting is complete, but it is an interesting analysis of the contributory factors when the vehicle is "at fault"

You have quoted the column headed fatal collisions/cars. The figures appear worse if you include other vehicles and/or non fatal collisions, however as the columns don't add up to 100 it is not so easy to see. I presume this is because there are sometimes more than 1 contributory factor.
In table 7-4 it shows" Cyclist wearing dark clothing at night" as a contributory factor in 10% of fatal accidents, I wondered what your take on that was?

 

[Alun]

Which is how? Remove yourself from the road?

I was thinking more along the lines of "defensive cycling" about which there are a number of articles on the web

 

[Recycler]

We could try the Dft and their work..

38% of accidents involving vehicles had failing to look as a contributory factor and 17% failing to correctly assess speed or path, followed by another 8% where the driver was too close.

How does HiViz help in this 63% of incidents?

As far as I can see, there is no measure in those stats about how many of those accidents were with cyclist who were/were not wearing Hi Viz. It may be that all those accidents were with people who wern't wearing Hi viz.......(.though I doubt I would be able to find such a convenient statistic! ). I could even argue that around 63% of cyclists don't wear Hi viz....though that would be a disingenuous argument.

In this case, that report simply takes us no further as it doesn't really address the issue of Hi Viz..

It does however say that;

the wearing of Hi Viz/reflective clothing may help reduce the risk of such accidents in the dark...

....but "may" doesn't help us much either.

I am intrigued that you seem so determined to diss Hi Viz, yet you tell us that you have lots of lumens on your bike. Do you use your lights in daylight. If so, why?

You still haven't been able to provide a reference or link to support your claim that your earlier quote really did come from the Metropolitan Police.

 

[Boris Bajic]

When I ride in bright clothing, I am repeatedly not hit by countless other road users.

Last Thursday was my record. More motorists didn't hit me more times than on any equivalent ride (ceteris paribus) in similar conditions and in something not unlike the same visibility (inclement weather and/or precipitation notwithstanding).

In purely empirical terms, this is surely the proof of all proofs. 17% of the cars that failed to hit me were up to or at least German, if not more.

With my point now proved, it remains only for me to remember what my point was.

I challenge anyone to find a weakness in my argument that will alter my thinking.

 

[Alun]

All well and good but it doesn't help with the situation where the person just doesn't look.

What would you suggest then?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Pristine Hi-Viz, brand new hybrid, wheel reflectors, helmet, riding on the pavement or on a segregated cycle path....

Certainly screams novice to me.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

What would you suggest then?

a variety of approaches, from improved operator training, re-certification, through to machine confiscation via, for severe backsliders, cattle prods to the groin, designed to encourage the operators of dangerous machinery to take more care when doing so in shared public spaces....

 

[Alun]

Adopting HiViz is accepting the responsibility that correctly belongs with the driver, the dangerous party in the whole affair.

I don't disagree with you, I think it might be partly the reason for opposition to Hi-Viz amongst some here. Same could be said for the thing some cyclists wear on their heads.

 

[Boris Bajic]

a variety of approaches, from improved operator training, re-certification, through to machine confiscation via, for severe backsliders, cattle prods to the groin, designed to encourage the operators of dangerous machinery to take more care when doing so in shared public spaces....

I think this is unhelpfully harsh towards the cyclists it would affect. Many are quite attached to their cycles and would resent having them confiscated.

 

[Recycler]

The reason I use lights on my bike, incredible though it may seem is to see the roads and paths ahead of me.!!!!!!!!!

Really? I use my lights for that too.
...............I also use my front light so that people can see me coming, and my rear light so that they can see me going. I believe that being visible to other road users is helpful.

Your fixation is becoming tedious..

It would be better if you don't get into the realm of being personal in this discussion, so I will say no more on your comment than let's try to keep this civilised.

Hi Viz does not work in the majority of situations where driver complacency, misjudgement or failure to take simple steps is involved.As for the ridiculous statement:

It is called informed choice and is only an anathema to those who are so entrenched in an unproven and unprovable case.

I can only repeat that every single report which you have come up with has both recognised the need for, and suggested the promotion of Hi Viz. Nobody has said that it is the be-all and end-all. nobody has said that it will prevent all accidents. But I do believe that it is an important part the arsenal that we can deploy to make the sport safer for ourselves.

When, or if, we can come to an agreement on the effectiveness of Hi Viz then we can move onto the question of Risk Assessments which you raised earlier.

 

[Recycler]

I presume this is because there are sometimes more than 1 contributory factor.

Yes, near the top of the column it says "Average CF's per driver" which it gives as 1.62 for that column.
I find that these reports can be heavy going on a Bank Holiday Monday.

 

[Alun]

Yes, near the top of the column it says "Average CF's per driver" which it gives as 1.62 for that column.
I find that these reports can be heavy going on a Bank Holiday Monday.

Yes, I'll be driving the BBQ this afternoon, so I might not have time to analyse them fully today.
Is Hi-Viz fire retardant?

 

[Recycler]

I was thinking more along the lines of "defensive cycling"

I fully agree with that, but it won't surprise you when I say that Hi Viz can also be part of my defence mechanisms.

 

[smutchin]

To claim otherwise is simply ignoring the results of the very research that you were quoting earlier........an 8 times reduction in days of work amongst the wearers of Hi Viz.

Are you able to address my concerns about how that study was carried out? If not, its findings are not to be trusted.

I stand by my view that Hi Viz has an important part to play in improving our safety.

You are, of course, entitled to your view. My only concern is that others reading your comments may think that they are based on genuine scientific evidence. That is arrant nonsense.

d.