Intersex athletes in Women's sport

[Crackle]

Yes it was Kristin Worsley

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/g...allenge-in-gender-verification-suit-1.3377266

This article is a little out of date but the point of it was that it was the IOC enforcing Androgen levels. The Pechstein case referred to was upheld so CAS still holds sway in sporting disputes.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

While looking for the mentioned cyclist, I came across this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Dumaresq

Which seems like the UCI backed the cyclist against complaints from a local organisation and permitted them to carry on cycling. But this seems to counter the above statement. There is one cyclist here with testosterone levels who is healthy and within the mandated limits, and then another who (or whose doctor) claims that testosterone level would make them ill.

Obviously everybody's body is different and what may be healthy levels for one may not be for another. But where do you a draw a line between allowing people to compete, and not having it open to abuse?

It would be nice if a Dr's opinion could be trusted in saying whether an athletes level is safe and normal for them as an individual, and not have to use an arbitrary limit. But as we have seen in the past in many professional sports, there are Drs involved in many doping scandals.

Although this kind of thing shouldn't be happening, I think when professional athletes are involved publicly in these kinds of cases. I believe that it does highlight that these issues are real since most people are very rarely to come across this first hand in their everyday life.

 

[oldroadman]

Taking a step back slightly from the discussion, worthy though it may be, should a logical extension be that all exceptional people are "suspect". So top level male competitors should be "treated" because they have exceptional heat/lung capacity, exceptional pain tolerance. That way they will be reduced to a "level" defined by international federations, so it's "fairer" for others. If a high standard female competitor has a superior/different genetic makeup does that make them less worthy? There's a bit of a dual standard - men with high testosterone levels and superior engines are "winners", women (in a binary gender sports world) with exceptional ability and higher than the "accepted normal" levels of certain substances, are somehow "cheating normal women".
When anyone defines normal we can reduce everyone to average by intervention to supress what naturally happens in their bodies.
The smell of fear and double standards (especially from IAAF) is very, very unpleasant.

 

[ufkacbln]

I do not have a better alternative to offer.

My discomfort with"intersex" is that it's an "other" definition - one that establishes that "them" are different to "us". If sex is binary, then these folk are either male or female. If sex is not binary, then we all occupy positions on a spectrum and are all alike in that. What we seem to be constructing here is a system where most of us comfortably sit as either male or female on a binary system, and that is the norm, with a minority who don't fit our system and are labelled as other.

The obvious riposte is that this merely reflects the biological reality and unfortunately for these people they are in fact biologically aberrant. The logical conclusion would then seem to be that they should compete in the Paralympics not the Olympics. No-one has yet been prepared to vocalise that (though the alternative of enforced surgery seems equally obnoxious), though I don't doubt quite a few think that. And I don't want our language or our classification system to encourage that.

I guess my real discomfort is that we depersonalise a very personal and individual thing by discussing it in impersonal and categorical medical language.

Personally, I've never been entirely comfortable with the split (often insisted upon on these threads) between sex and gender, and I prefer to see them both as an intertwined continuum.

I would foresee the same issue again only exacerbated.

Firstly there would still be a lack of clarity as to whether they race in the Men's or Women's events, but also there would be an issue over the actual disability classification. There are ten main impairments to qualify, and the intersex issue does not fit in any of these. There could be further objections if such an athlete was placed in a group where the lack of one of these impairments gave them a perceived advantage.

I remember the controversy where an able bodied person was racing in a wheelchair

 

[velovoice]

I read recently (can't recall the source but it was quoted in The Week) a summary of the key issues, ending with the suggestion that perhaps what society needs to get its head round is the idea that, generally speaking and regardless of gender, "Olympians are not 'normal'."

 

[Crackle]

I read recently (can't recall the source but it was quoted in The Week) a summary of the key issues, ending with the suggestion that perhaps what society needs to get its head round is the idea that, generally speaking and regardless of gender, "Olympians are not 'normal'."

I think the more you think about this and research it, you're left with the idea that unusual chemistry is what separates Elites from the majority. To divide it on grounds of sex is crude but the fact remains that people expect it to be divided thus.

 

[oldroadman]

I think the more you think about this and research it, you're left with the idea that unusual chemistry is what separates Elites from the majority. To divide it on grounds of sex is crude but the fact remains that people expect it to be divided thus.

As I once heard from an elite sportsperson in another sport not related to cycling "welcome to the world of genetic exception". World class competitors in most sport fall into this category. If they didn't they would not be part of an elite.

 

[400bhp]

"Normal" means different things in different contexts. In the normalised world of elite sport then outliers like semenya may well fit the normal distribution.

Maybe us lot should run elite sports

 

[MikeonaBike]

This is an interesting subject. If you were a woman athlete, would you feel comfortable racing against Semenya? The problem would be that you would be unable to compete on equal terms without doping. You could target other 'normal' athletes by committing to training harder and better but that would never put you on an equal footing as Semenya. I think if I were that female athlete, I would not compete in any race unless I felt that I was on a level playing field with all the others. Of course, such an attitude would be difficult for people like Semenya to deal with if athletes refused to compete against them. Such a refusal, though, would be understandable but unlikely to be condoned in public in this PC age.

 

[MikeonaBike]

You seem to be saying that Semenya is 'not normal', but elite athletes are 'not normal' as has already been pointed out by oldroadman. This has nothing at all to do with 'being PC'.

All I was trying to do was to imagine how an athlete may feel about competing against someone who they can never be on equal terms with. Not blaming Semenya at all but it must be very frustrating to believe that the only way to be on equal terms in that situation would be to take drugs to even things up. I agree that in itself, it is not a PC matter but any comments against people such as Semenya are often taken as a PC issue. What would happen if someone was born with webbed feet and hands? Would they be allowed to compete in competitive swimming? A slightly absurd analogy, maybe, but is the point not the same?

 

[dellzeqq]

All I was trying to do was to imagine how an athlete may feel about competing against someone who they can never be on equal terms with. Not blaming Semenya at all but it must be very frustrating to believe that the only way to be on equal terms in that situation would be to take drugs to even things up. I agree that in itself, it is not a PC matter but any comments against people such as Semenya are often taken as a PC issue. What would happen if someone was born with webbed feet and hands? Would they be allowed to compete in competitive swimming? A slightly absurd analogy, maybe, but is the point not the same?

see also Usain Bolt.

Some runners are faster, some jumpers can jump further (or higher), some dwile flonkers can dodge the flonk. And the rest of us have to get used to it...

 

[Crackle]

This is an interesting subject. If you were a woman athlete, would you feel comfortable racing against Semenya? The problem would be that you would be unable to compete on equal terms without doping. You could target other 'normal' athletes by committing to training harder and better but that would never put you on an equal footing as Semenya. I think if I were that female athlete, I would not compete in any race unless I felt that I was on a level playing field with all the others. Of course, such an attitude would be difficult for people like Semenya to deal with if athletes refused to compete against them. Such a refusal, though, would be understandable but unlikely to be condoned in public in this PC age.

I don't think being PC, which is a meaningless term, has much to do with it. At it's most basic level it's practical problem requiring a solution but your thoughts and reaction, go to the heart of the matter, which is one of public perception of gender. It's only when you begin to de construct that on athletic terms you realize that gender equality is meaningless and sporting equality is equally meaningless because we are not all the same and in fact it's our differences which make us the sportsperson we are.

The question remains at how we square up that perception with how we practically run sporting competitions. As yet, I haven't seen or still don't have an answer

 

[bianchi1]

The trouble is you need some sort of classification system if you are going to have seperate male and female events. If Jimmy Vicaut (7th in the men's 100m) decided to start competing in the woman's event he would win everything, but I imagine it wouldn't be allowed because he is a man...but what defines him as a man.

So if people want segregated sport, some sort of definition needs to be made. My guess is it's going to be an agreed testosterone level.

 

[Crackle]

A story in road.cc about Jillian bearden who is part of the IOC's transgender testing program.

http://road.cc/content/news/212281-transgender-cyclist-first-female-finisher-arizona-race

 

[CaadX]

I believe an event catering for athletes with different abilities is called a handicap. I run a summer handicap TT series to cater for different abilities,reason being I wouldn't get the the numbers and competition were it not a handicap. Men and women compete for one trophy and its close. Different level and simplistic maybe but it cannot be that hard to come up with something should the requirment be there.

Looking at it from the opposite end, what's to stop suspect coaches ( surely not ) using intersex for there own advantage and personal gain and maybe at the cost of all others.

We know what happens when a sporting field believes rightly or wrongly that an athlete has a fair or unfair advantage, its been discussed enough in these pages. The majority of contenders would probably find something else to occupy their time and probably again to the dertriment of their sport. I could be wrong, however history tells us otherwise.