Impact Speed

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Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
I'm assuming a flat road , just to keep it simple.
its going to be something like 40deg angle in .5sec you will travel 170inches at 20mph and your 64inches high.

once your head hits the ground it will travel alone it which will only mean you only have that impact for milliseconds which would lessen the damage.

read an interesting thing in a cycling magazine this lunchtime, it was discussing modern helmets and putting great emphasis on lightens ,aerodynamics and airflow , but it said modern helmets do not preform well at low speed impacts and are designed to protect you in a high speed more catastrophic impact. - which implies the foam doesn't compress at low speed so the shock goes right through and into your head , it takes a high speed impact to make the foam work and increase the deceleration time of the impact which would reduce the G force.
If I'm interpreting it correctly it kind of makes sense. A foam that deforms at low speed would be useless at high speed.
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
Not entirely related, but I read somewhere that in a direct collision in a car,assuming you have your seatbelt on, it's not the collisional force forward that kills you. Your body flies forward, the seat belt pulls you back, then in a pendulum motion, your internal organs then fall forward again (the third motion) and it is often this that causes the internal damage that can kill.

yes that is correct, your crushed internally.
 

green1

Über Member
Not entirely related, but I read somewhere that in a direct collision in a car,assuming you have your seatbelt on, it's not the collisional force forward that kills you. Your body flies forward, the seat belt pulls you back, then in a pendulum motion, your internal organs then fall forward again (the third motion) and it is often this that causes the internal damage that can kill.
Not quite, the seat belt (ground or whatever that stops you) arrests your body but it doesn't stop your internals which carry on moving forward, that causes the damage.
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
Found this which gives relivant data
According to SCCA data, the neck is the most often injured body part (31.5 percent), followed by the back (19.5 percent), and then the head (15.8 percent). Severe centrifugal forces exert tremendous shearing pressures on the brain. This causes the brain to impact on the inside of the skull, or tear at the medulla at the brain stem. Developers of the HANS used crash test dummies in their testing procedures and found the head can briefly encounter 25 'G's', amounting to about 250 pounds, in a 35 mph impact. Gravitational forces are dependent on speed, and a doubling of speed quadruples the 'G-forces'.

To determine the number of 'G-forces' in a collision, the formula is:

G's=.0333X(M.P.H. X M.P.H.) Distance. In other words, multiply the square of the vehicle's speed, in mph, times .0333 and divide it by the stopping distance in feet. This is for a direct, head on collision, and the formula is more complex in angular collisions due to the fact that the kinetic energy is expanded over a longer period of time, resulting in lower 'G-forces'.

so our case of 22.5mph 2 = 506.25 x.0333 = 16.8 stopping distance is O so the G is 16.8G

Collision, collision, collision.

There are actually three collisions occurring in a crash:

. Vehicle vs. whatever it contacts with (we can discount this)
2. body vs. whatever it contacts with
3. body tissues and organs vs. body tissues and organs

Once your vehicle strikes another object, you have suffered a collision. At that point your body is slammed into some stationary or moving object, or perhaps ejected and is thrown to the ground. At that point, your internal organs, including the brain, began a collision course of their own. Brain injury can occur without any impact to the head, whether helmeted or not. If the body comes to a sudden stop, including the head and skull, the brain continues to move and slams into the inner skull wall. Brain tissue and blood vessels can shear in this violent, twisting action. The skull, even without a helmet, can withstand hundreds of 'G's', but the brain cannot. Other internal organs, especially the heart and aorta, are subjected to these tremendous forces, and often rupture or tear. To give a graphic example, a 160 pound man will strain at his seat belt with a weight of 6,400 pounds at a 40'G' deceleration. Now you might understand why so many people die from ruptured or torn aortas in crashes. There is basically little connective tissue to anchor the heart, since it has to palpitate and move during its rhythmic beating.

'G-Force' Tolerance: Head vs. Neck

It is believed that the head can withstand 300 'G-forces', which is higher than other body parts. The deceleration of 'G-forces', movement of the head and duration of the incident all determine the amount of injury the head will sustain. It is common to have skull fracture and no brain injury, and brain injury and no skull fracture. Helmets are designed to distribute the force of the impact over a wide surface in order to reduce the amount of 'G-forces' reaching the brain. The force of inertia in a crash can cause brain injury even without an impact to the head, thus a helmet cannot protect against this event. Brain tissue and blood vessels can be torn by inertia when the head rotates, common occurrence amplified with helmet use. The weight of the head and helmet pulling at the neck can be sufficient to fracture the skull. Known as basal skull fracture (hangman's noose analogy), these injuries can often be fatal.

According to NARI, the neck is the most often injured body part in their studies. this might account for the fact that the NHTSA regional spokesman said there are more neck injuries without helmets than with, thus leading him to his erroneous conclusion that helmets might prevent neck injury. Tests using human cadavers found that the neck can tolerate about 42 foot-pounds of backward whiplash force before injuries began to occur. The muscles in the rear of the neck are stronger than those in the front, thus a forward rotating head will allow the neck to withstand about 140 foot-pounds of force. Of course, these are ideal positions, direct forward or backward movement. In a real crash, the head is bounced in all sorts of directions, and the neck is less tolerant of sideways acceleration/deceleration. In these instances, the neck can handle about 33 foot-pounds of force.

How strong is the unhelmeted head? The amount of force a head can withstand depends on several factors, including the location of the impact, the size of the object striking the head and the density of the individuals bone tissue. The frontal bone (forehead) can withstand on average, 1,000 to 1,600 pounds of force. The temporo-parietal (sides of head) bones can tolerate around 700 to 1,900 pounds of force. the back of the skull can handle around 1,440 pounds of force. The bones of the face and cheek are less tolerant, standing forces of only 280 to 520 pounds.

Remember, the brain cannot withstand the same forces the skull can, and even a helmet cannot prevent dangerous forces from reaching the brain or the brain moving within the skull cavity.

When we said that the forward rotating head can transmit energy loads to the neck, and the neck can tolerate about 140 foot-pounds of force? Well, when the engineers conducted tests on their HANS safety restraint system, they used a full human form crash test dummy. With the HANS restraint system in place, the dummy was held in position during a frontal impact collision, resulting in neck loads under 130 foot-pounds. When tested without the restraint system in place, the dummy's head rotated forward in the simulated 40 mph test collision, and the neck received loads of nearly 1,000 foot-pounds. The dummy was helmeted, and I suggest that if the spokesman for NHTSA really believes helmets can prevent neck injury, he climb onto the test sled, put on a helmet and see how his neck handles 1,000 foot-pounds of pressure.
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
2270282 said:
I wouldn't be too sure that anything written in a cycle magazine was true on any subject, let alone this subject.

yea as I read it it sounded like a sales pitch from a helmet manufacture , more concerned with the look and style. - more like a fashion accessorie.
 

Hawk

Veteran
once your head hits the ground it will travel alone it which will only mean you only have that impact for milliseconds which would lessen the damage.

Actually, the shorter the amount of time you have to stop your head (or make it bounce), the higher the average deceleration. Deceleration is how quickly your speed changes, the same change in speed over shorter time is more deceleration. Deceleration is directly related to force (which you want to keep low in an impact, for your head). Your head wont go through the ground so it WILL stop (maybe bounce), you're trying to stop it as gently as possible, over the longest time.

So really the helmet does two things, firstly it bends and deforms to reduce how much force is coming from the road in to your skull. It also significantly increases the time taken for forces acting.

A foam that deforms at low speed would be useless at high speed.

Why do you think that?
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
your right you want a long declaration time, so after the initial impact the head skids along the ground it decelerates slowly. if it hit a tree you have all the deceleration in one go.
If the helmet absorbed a light impact by compressing the foam, then it would have lost some of its compressibility before a hard impact unless you made it thicker.
it can only compress so much so a softer material would not stop a hard impact, the impact would overwhelm it in effect.
I suppose they had to make a choice so went for the hard impact
 

Hawk

Veteran
your right you want a long declaration time, so after the initial impact the head skids along the ground it decelares slowely. if it hit a tree you have all the decelaratuioin in one go.
If the helmet absorbed a light impact by compressing the foam, then it would have lost some of its compressabilty before a hard impact unless you made it thicker.
it can only compress so much so a softer material would not stop a hard impact, the impact would overwhealm it in effect.
I suppose they had to make a choice so went for the hard impact

Actually I meant the "impact". The actual deceleration of your head from 20mph forward to 0mph will rarely cause problems as it takes place over seconds rather than milliseconds. The bit that causes head injury, this high deceleration and force, is stopping your 15mph downwards head when it hits the ground. This is more like milliseconds...
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
yes the initial contact will be milliseconds, unless you hit a tree or something. - if you just fell with no forward motion you come down at about 12mph which gives an impact of only 5G - but you get the full 5G as theirs no motion to elongate the deceleration time.
what you hit hasn't been factored in, I'm assuming flat tarmac, but a kerb edge is going to point load the damage.
must look at how this fits in with helmet design perammitters
 

Hawk

Veteran
yes the initial contact will be milliseconds, unless you hit a tree or something. - if you just fell with no forward motion you come down at about 12mph which gives an impact of only 5G - but you get the full 5G as theirs no motion to elongate the deceleration time.
what you hit hasn't been factored in, I'm assuming flat tarmac, but a kerb edge is going to point load the damage.
must look at how this fits in with helmet design perammitters

Sorry if I've missed this maths but where did you get 5g from 12mph from?

Yes, one part of designing a helmet is getting it to spread a load, that would normally be over just a small contact area of your head, across more of your head. This applies to flat tarmac or similar.

Hitting an edge could have lots of different consequences. Head snagging etc. Energy absorption (assuming the kerb does hit helmet, and not one of the big ventilation gaps) would be broadly similar
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
speed squared x 0.333 div by stopping distance in feet = G
glad I found that as I was really struggling.
newer helmets are going to have a full shell design with internal airducts according too this article I was reading.
but they are still more designed for look than function.
 

Hawk

Veteran
speed squared x 0.333 div by stopping distance in feet = G

That's about right (think there should be a half or 2 in there somewhere. Even then, I don't think it'll give you g, it will give you a - divide by about 10 to find g. Not sure where you got this).

But the difficult part is stopping distance. To clarify, that distance is between the head hitting the ground at 15mph and when it then stops moving in the vertical plane (it can still be flying above/skidding along the road surface). It's roughly the thickness of your helmet I guess.
 
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