Hypothetical question regarding illegal Ebikes

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Good morning,

Without there being any cases to cite where this issue has been examined, I would assume that the presence of the battery on your person would be regarded as the same as its presence on the bike with the motor switched off.

My reason being; Imagine someone riding an e-motorbike under EAPC exemptions on a public road who is pulled over, he then removes the battery and puts it in his rucksack and says "This is not an e-motorbike as there is no battery."

The timing of this may be difficult, but if the police car/bike pulls up in front of the ebike not impossible.

If "the battery is in my rucksack" was an allowable defence then in order to prove that an offence had been commited then proof that the battery was in place would also be needed. It seems quite reasonable to see that this could not be proven without acceptable video footage.

Bye

Ian
 
Hi,
Just through curiosity it's got me thinking about the use of illegal Ebikes.
I make no excuses I've got one ,but I must stress I only use it on private land/estate with the owners permission.
It's a couple of miles though from where I live and was wondering how would I stand if I rode it to the private land along the public road with the battery taken off the bike and safely tucked away into my rucksack.
I have tried it along the road without the battery,and yes it's slow but not painfully slow.
Would this still be classed as illegal as I haven't got a clue to be honest.
If it is ok I would certainly use it more for short errands.
All the very best,
Johnny.

What is the model and how is it illegal? Some people assume all ebikes with throttles are illegal but before 2017 they were still legal to buy and still legal to use today and ebike kits have an exemption on throttles that could apply. You still have to adhere to other parts of the legislation. Many ebikes which were not classed as 250W a few years ago are now being sold as 250W. What definitely makes an ebike illegal without exception is lack of pedals but there are many variables.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
What is the model and how is it illegal? Some people assume all ebikes with throttles are illegal but before 2017 they were still legal to buy and still legal to use today and ebike kits have an exemption on throttles that could apply. You still have to adhere to other parts of the legislation. Many ebikes which were not classed as 250W a few years ago are now being sold as 250W. What definitely makes an ebike illegal without exception is lack of pedals but there are many variables.
Pre 2016, or those that qualified under the old regulations.

There is no exemption for DIY kits. The person fitting the kit has to ensure that the bike complies with all current regulations.
 

Drago

Legendary Member
Good morning,

Without there being any cases to cite where this issue has been examined, I would assume that the presence of the battery on your person would be regarded as the same as its presence on the bike with the motor switched off.

My reason being; Imagine someone riding an e-motorbike under EAPC exemptions on a public road who is pulled over, he then removes the battery and puts it in his rucksack and says "This is not an e-motorbike as there is no battery."

The timing of this may be difficult, but if the police car/bike pulls up in front of the ebike not impossible.

If "the battery is in my rucksack" was an allowable defence then in order to prove that an offence had been commited then proof that the battery was in place would also be needed. It seems quite reasonable to see that this could not be proven without acceptable video footage.

Bye

Ian

And good morning to you too, Sir.

Buy yourself a copy of Blackstones, and read up on the definitions of mechanically propelled vehicle and motor vehicle. This is all covered by primary legislation, thus there is no requirement for case law to define the matter.

These illegal ebikes are both, motor vehicle and mechanically propelled vehicle but most pertinently they are motor vehicles, for which the vehicle is supposed to be registered and the rider properly licensed, insured, etc. The fact of a rider using it on a road or public place de facto makes it a motor vehicle, ie, a mechanically propelled vehicle adapted or intended for use on a road or other public place. Depending on weight and performance such a device is legally classed as a moped or notorcycle,

Think of it this way. If you removed the engine and transmission from your car and propelled it along with your feet Fred Flintstone style your are still liable for insurance, MOT, and would have to be licenced, and would still get stuck on for exactly the same offences as if the engine were propelling it along.

Strip your car down to a bare shell and park it at the roadside you would still be required to insure and MOT it (and tax it, but that's another matter.) It remains a motor vehicle.

Therefore, the example you cite would provide no defence - the removal of the battery does not render it any less a motor vehicle than a car with the fuel tank removed.

And so it is with these illegal ebikes - simply removing the battery does not make them suddenly legal. It is still a motor vehicle.

However, there is a quirk at play here. Because they are unregistered the authorities don't know about it (unless the rider has been caught) so if the rider removed all trace of the mechanisms of mechanical propulsion (battery, holder, wiring, controller, switches, etc) then unlike the example of a car they could then get away with riding it as a normal bicycle, albeit only because law enforcement is ignorance the fact that it was ever a motor vehicle because it had never been registered. What the law never knows won't hurt you, but just not being caught doesn't make it actually legal.

But that aside, the principle stands - once a motor vehicle, always a motor vehicle, and simply removing a part of the motorised bit does not alter that legal designation. Removing bits of it, even removing the wheels, doesn't make it any less a motor vehicle in the eyes of the law - the only means of negating a motor vehicles status is for it to be scrapped beyond use by an accredited vehicle dismantler and the DVLA informed. That the rider of a dodgy ebike probably hasn't bothered to register it is neither here nor there - the only legal means by which it can then cease to be a motor vehicle is for it to be forfeited and destroyed in an approved manner, which is what the dibble do.
 
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Pre 2016, or those that qualified under the old regulations.

There is no exemption for DIY kits. The person fitting the kit has to ensure that the bike complies with all current regulations.

Manufactured from January 2016 required type approval (although an individual test per ebike) but there was a grace period where such bikes could be sold up to the end of 2016 I believe. Selling at retail and manufacturing being two different dates of course and I believe the grace period was until the end of 2016, i.e. before 2017.

The link below provides information regarding the exemption for type approval for ebike kits with twist and go throttles. So that is the exemption for kits they can have working twist and go throttles as long as they also comply with other parts of the legislation where as a commercial prebuilt ebike must go through the type approval process like 'Pedibal' and 'Wisper' ebikes which have to be individually tested for compliance.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

As stated before though the certification and legislation makes no sense as ebikes up to 900W are still sold as 250W and it looks like manufacturers are pushing the envelope and ebikes with peak output of over 1000W will still allowed to be 250W rated.
 

Tom B

Guru
Location
Lancashire
Removing the battery alone won't make it any less a 'mechanically propelled vehicle' for the purposes of the law. You'd need to removed the motor, electrics, the while shooting match.

But it's unlikely in the extreme any copper would care if the battery was in your rucksack and you were pedalling merrily away.

This is essentially where I got to with my reasoning.

I first thought as SEP the DOG defines an MPV it would be okay as the vehicle isn't being powered by Electricity.

But then I reasoned that taking the petrol out of my car, or indeed turning off the engine and rolling down't big'ill at 60mph doesn't mean I don't need insurance etc

So yea it needs to be road legal.

But unless you are being a numpty nobody is going to care.... probably.

That said have a little innocuous bump at 2mph injuring someone might cause a world of pain.
 

StuartG

slower but no further
Location
SE London
My e-bike kit is both legal and illegal as, I would think every kit sold in the UK as compliant potentially is both.

The settings are adjustable so the motor cuts out at 25kmh or a higher or lower speed. If I set it at the higher speed off road then that shouldn't make it illegal if I adjust it back to 25Kmh max on the road. Potential and intended are doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

The real hazard here is not the criminal law. The chances of an unprovoked policeperson or magistrate to take it anywhere must be zero. The (costly) threat is being illegal your bicycling insurance third party cover would be invalidated. That's if you have insurance of course. If you don't then you are probably equally as liable whether its legal or illegal but not being powered illegally at the time of the incident.

IANAL.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
My e-bike kit is both legal and illegal as, I would think every kit sold in the UK as compliant potentially is both.

The settings are adjustable so the motor cuts out at 25kmh or a higher or lower speed. If I set it at the higher speed off road then that shouldn't make it illegal if I adjust it back to 25Kmh max on the road. Potential and intended are doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

The real hazard here is not the criminal law. The chances of an unprovoked policeperson or magistrate to take it anywhere must be zero. The (costly) threat is being illegal your bicycling insurance third party cover would be invalidated. That's if you have insurance of course. If you don't then you are probably equally as liable whether its legal or illegal but not being powered illegally at the time of the incident.

IANAL.
If it's possible to set the speed cut-off to a higher speed, and you use the motor assistance on anything other than private land, it's illegal.

The original question was about removing the battery and riding with no assistance being possible until the battery was in place.
 

Dadam

Über Member
Location
SW Leeds
If it's possible to set the speed cut-off to a higher speed, and you use the motor assistance on anything other than private land, it's illegal.

The original question was about removing the battery and riding with no assistance being possible until the battery was in place.

Well therein lies a can of worms.
Possible with removing and re-soldering new components?
With a dongle available on the open market but the user doesn't have?
With a dongle the user owns but is not installed?
With a firmware flash update?
Via a hidden settings menu that only the factory or distributor can access?
Via a hidden settings menu that the end user could access but doesn't know about?
etc etc
 

Drago

Legendary Member
My e-bike kit is both legal and illegal as, I would think every kit sold in the UK as compliant potentially is both.

The settings are adjustable so the motor cuts out at 25kmh or a higher or lower speed. If I set it at the higher speed off road then that shouldn't make it illegal if I adjust it back to 25Kmh max on the road. Potential and intended are doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

The real hazard here is not the criminal law. The chances of an unprovoked policeperson or magistrate to take it anywhere must be zero. The (costly) threat is being illegal your bicycling insurance third party cover would be invalidated. That's if you have insurance of course. If you don't then you are probably equally as liable whether its legal or illegal but not being powered illegally at the time of the incident.

IANAL.

That depends. If it's "readily" adjustable, such as through means of a menu on the screen, combination of button presses, or switch for example, it's still illegal even if ridden in 15.5 mph restricted mode.

You don't state the means by which yours can be adjusted but the fact you can toggle it while out on the road suggests the definition of "readily" is met and yours is not, technically, legal.

Again, whether anyone would know or even care if you rode in 15.5 mode is a different matter. However, considering the potential ramifications if caught I can see no argument that justifies taking even the most infinitesimal risk.
 
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classic33

Leg End Member
Well therein lies a can of worms.
Possible with removing and re-soldering new components?
With a dongle available on the open market but the user doesn't have?
With a dongle the user owns but is not installed?
With a firmware flash update?
Via a hidden settings menu that only the factory or distributor can access?
Via a hidden settings menu that the end user could access but doesn't know about?
etc etc
He states quite clearly it's adjustable by him. And if ridden on other than private land even the adjusted higher limit is illegal.
 

StuartG

slower but no further
Location
SE London
The original question was about removing the battery and riding with no assistance being possible until the battery was in place.

Precisely. If the rider has no insurance then, like any other legal bicyclist, they have total third party liability. If the motor was not engaged then it will unlikely have any bearing on the third party loss and damages demanded. That is a civil matter. If the bicyclist has third party insurance then it will not cover an illegal ebike so the rider is in the same position as those with none.

Whether the rider is liable to criminal prosecution then technically possibly. Realistically improbable. That's what the OP should be worrying about least.

IANAL.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Precisely. If the rider has no insurance then, like any other legal bicyclist, they have total third party liability. If the motor was not engaged then it will unlikely have any bearing on the third party loss and damages demanded. That is a civil matter. If the bicyclist has third party insurance then it will not cover an illegal ebike so the rider is in the same position as those with none.

Whether the rider is liable to criminal prosecution then technically possibly. Realistically improbable. That's what the OP should be worrying about least.

IANAL.
Can you get insurance to cover an illegal vehicle?

The wording used is "capable of propelling".
 

Drago

Legendary Member
Can you get insurance to cover an illegal vehicle?

If the vehicle is illegal by virtue of the rider not having the correct licence, no. It js not possible to hold valid cover, even you you have paid for it, if you are "otherwise in accordance with a licence."

If the vehicle is simply unregistered but the rider has the correct licence, then it's theoretically possible to be covered with traders insurance or a rider policy, but realistically the typical insurer won't specifically cover an unregistered vehicle.
 
Well therein lies a can of worms.
Possible with removing and re-soldering new components?
With a dongle available on the open market but the user doesn't have?
With a dongle the user owns but is not installed?
With a firmware flash update?
Via a hidden settings menu that only the factory or distributor can access?
Via a hidden settings menu that the end user could access but doesn't know about?
etc etc

The more basic ebike kits don't have a display just a simple start/stop cadence sensor and a throttle. So the controller had a connector that you could connect to restrict speed to close to the legal limit, maybe a bit under or a bit over but within the 17mph 10% tolerance allowed. However such direct drive motor kits also benefitted hugely from the restriction, the cells were discharged at a far lower rate so lasted much longer, the range of the ebike could be extended sometimes 3x and the risk of fire in the battery pack was massively reduced plus the controller lasted longer. Propelling such an ebike at 28mph (its unrestricted speed) compared to 15.5mph took 3 or 4 times the power as it went up exponentially due to the huge wind resistance at the higher speed, this was the only way of achieving the claimed 1000W power such kits were sold at. Restricted they were more like 400W even on hills. I feel where you have a physical plug to attach which you could tape around that is a fair legal speed restrictor in my opinion although not sure what the law states about it. Of course you could extend that switch cable out to a hidden switch on the handlebars to give you a speed toggle.
 
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