how much high vis

[Tynan]

Not in my case. I don't mind wearing either that much when I have to. My concern is just that it's misplaced effort, and limits effort on more effective measures. Effectively, the focus on helmets and hiviz means that people end up being less safe than they otherwise would be.

I think the typical cyclist really doesn't think about it that much if at all, I think helmet and hi viz and maybe lights is about as good as they'll ever really get

Any cyclist that starts doing primary and reading the road properly is proably sophisticated enough to make informed choices about what to wear or not, and helmet and hi viz ain't going to hinder them

 

[BentMikey]

That's exactly it - because everyone makes such an issue out of needing helmet and hiviz, no effort is spent on the far more important cycle craft. It's a safety own-goal.

 

[Tynan]

not sure you;re on the right lines here

I think the entry level person goes hi viz and helmet as a starter pack and goes no further and that's a good thing

they'll likely never get too much better that that and even if they do, hi viz and helmet is still a good thing

are you susggesting that a noob starting out without those two things will become a a better rider? I suggest the late night ninjas sugest otherwise

 

[BentMikey]

That's the problem - helmets and hiviz are presented by UK and US culture as the be-all and end-all of cycling safety. Stupid, because even if they work to the very best of your hopes, and there's much doubt on that, they are largely insignificant compared with a teeny tiny bit of focus elsewhere.

I think your view of many cyclists could be a tad patronising. If they were pointed in the right direction from the start, there's much more chance they would seek to improve their cyclecraft, instead of being led astray by the safety red herrings of helmet and hiviz.

 

[Tynan]

we're discussing at cross purposes

'they are largely insignificant compared with a teeny tiny bit of focus elsewhere.'

I'd say no to that, and I'd say bollocks given that they'll never ever get anyone telling them about focus anywhere

my point is that they're going to get on and ride it in the cycle line up the inside of buses and trucks and left turning everythings

so it's a starter pack that will keep them as safe as can be

yes road sense and the rest is very vauable but they'll get that how? Lots will never get it, we've all seen them plodding home in the gutter and good luck to them but but hi viz and a helmet plus light hopefully is as good as it'll get and that beats the shoot of riding home in the dark in black clothes, bare headed and without lights imho

lee, read my posts, it's not an either or choice when they buy a bike, the vest and hat you ca buy, the good level of road sense you can't

 

[BentMikey]

Tynan, that sort of thinking is probably why the UK is less safe to cycle in than much of the continent.

 

[summerdays]

This discussion is developing in an interesting way now. Less pure slagging off the other point of view and more depth.

Tynan, that sort of thinking is probably why the UK is less safe to cycle in than much of the continent.

On the continent - how do they develop that road craft? Do they have an equivalent book? I thought it was more a sort of culture of cycling was an acceptable mode of transport that many people used, and their laws too?

I'm just not sure how you get everyone understanding. Yes the amount of cycle training in schools is increasing, but they soon forget quite a bit of that (in the same way they forget the stuff they learned to pass the driving test). And it will take years for that generation to start to become the dominent numbers on the road. I know in Bristol they are trying to think of new ways of getting to adults and families as part of the Cycle city stuff.

So is your position that if someone has had some training on cycling, and then wants to add helmet and hi vis then that's OK? Or even then are you anti them?

 

[summerdays]

Some good points, however I think common sense does prevail in some circumstances if you are new to cycling. (or I hope it does) in respect of undertaking lorries, turning left etc.

I would just hope that the cyclist has at least the sense to read a book and get an idea of how they should ride on the road.

I do think now as well, a lot more cyclits are riding on the pavement rather then risk it on the road. So from their perspective they are in a catch 22 situation (even if they don't realsie this)

I must say that my return to cycling as an adult a few years ago - was very cautiously, on the pavement anywhere near busy roads etc. I don't know at what point I started looking for information online, and ended up at the old C++ site. Someone on there mentioned Cyclecraft and so I went out to buy the book. (I now have about 3 copies, 2 different versions and one spare - I was given the last 2, but its useful to lend out to other people).

Again I learnt the thing about left turning lorries from a on-line forum, I don't know that I had fully thought out why I shouldn't do that beforehand.

So how would you get to someone who didn't look on-line.

 

[historyman]

Not in my case. I don't mind wearing either that much when I have to. My concern is just that it's misplaced effort, and limits effort on more effective measures. Effectively, the focus on helmets and hiviz means that people end up being less safe than they otherwise would be.

Again, my point entirely. I have no probs. dressing up like a weirdo, but if it means people ignore you & give you less space than another human, then helmets & hiviz are not doing their job.

 

[SoulOnIce]

Is there any particular book on roadcraft that is recommended?

 

[BentMikey]

So is your position that if someone has had some training on cycling, and then wants to add helmet and hi vis then that's OK? Or even then are you anti them?

I don't have a problem with either hiviz or helmets, but instead with the culture that says they are necessary and are the most important thing you can do for your own safety. I suppose that's a subtle difference.

I rather like the look of some helmets, particularly the aggressively flared and vented racing helmets. They can look extremely cool!!

 

[Tynan]

99% of cyclists get on and ride

I did, never even considered reading or theory until I foind the old C+ site, until then it was all self taught experience, I think to pretend otherwise is delusional

 

[Noodley]

How did we ever manage in the days on Ever Ready lamps?

..or before.

 

[BigonaBianchi]

In the summer I wear a white cyclechat shirt...no hi vis...but this time of year I wear a hi vis vest. I rarely ride at night but I have a night vision jacket if I do and lights. In grey conditions during th eday I have a rear light on as a minimum and a hi vis vest.

It's a shame...I would rasthe rnot wear it...but car drivers are just so dangerous it's not worth the risk


whoever designs a dead sexy cool looking hi vis clothing range will make a packet

 

[summerdays]

I don't have a problem with either hiviz or helmets, but instead with the culture that says they are necessary and are the most important thing you can do for your own safety. I suppose that's a subtle difference.

I rather like the look of some helmets, particularly the aggressively flared and vented racing helmets. They can look extremely cool!!

Sorry I have mis-understood your posts in the past and thought you were against them on principle.

Have the sense to go down the local library and research online? Ask the local cc? Enquiry from the local book shop about books on cycling?

When there is a will there is always a way.

I disagree, I don't think someone returning to cycling does go down the library or research websites - or if they do its to ask what bike to get rather than how they should position themselves on the road etc. Luckily we often repeat ourselves and mention Cyclecraft.

99% of cyclists get on and ride

I did, never even considered reading or theory until I foind the old C+ site, until then it was all self taught experience, I think to pretend otherwise is delusional

I think Tynan's way is how the majority return to cycling. I mean what do they need to read for - they cycled as a kid, they perhaps drive a car so what else is there to learn? A few contemplate getting additional training but the majority get on a bike.

Hopefully as more people cycle they maybe will question why someone is riding in a different manner to them - for example the number of people who zoom round the edge of a roundabout - on one of the big ones in town, I am usually the only person who rides it in primary position. I suspect all they really think is why is she wasting her time going slower, not undercutting the cars.