Helvellyn deaths

[Andy_R]

Too many go out these days with the expectation that should things go wrong, help is only a mobile call away.

Years ago, turned back a group of cubs headed for the summit of Snowdon Having just come down it, with full waterproofs. What they and their leaders were wearing wasn't suitable for where they were, let alone the summit. ADC Cubs in the group I was with helped matters.

Nowadays, thank goodness, we have the permit scheme. Leaders who want to take scouts (beavers/cubs/scouts/explorers) walking have to hold the appropriate permit for the terrain they are going to walk in. This means they have been assessed by experienced District Advisors, and have demonstrated good risk assessment/management abilities for all eventualities that may arise when walking in remote/difficult locations. A lot of leaders moan about not being allowed to take scouts out for a hike, but these are the ones who are usually not aware of the potential risks and what to do about them.

We recently had a fairly experienced Scout leader who wanted to get his hill walking permit fail the assessment because he allowed someone (an adult, I hasten to add) in his walking group to wear jeans. Most people wouldn't bat an eyelid at this, but pure cotton (ie denim) absorbs water like you wouldn't believe and doesn't want to let it go. In a mountainous area this means cold wet legs. Which means hypothermia in a very short amount of time.

 

[toffee]

I was walking on Snowden some years ago. Two young ladies came by me wearing flip flops shorts and tee shirts carrying a Harrods bag..Some incedents you can't legislate for which was more likely the case in this incedent.
In the case of the two young ladies I was tempted to congratulate them on there long walk from London.
Britains mountains my look benign but in adverse weather conditions are as dangerous as any in the world .

On a certain royal wedding day in 1981 I passed a couple in flip flops and shorts going up Helvelyn carrying two carrier bars with KLM on the side.

What annoys me is that I had a heavy rucksack with wet weather gear, tent and food to survive for a few days and yet I did not know that a carrier bag was all you need. May be they were not on a D of E expedition.

Derek

 

[Profpointy]

On a certain royal wedding day in 1981 I passed a couple in flip flops and shorts going up Helvelyn carrying two carrier bars with KLM on the side.

What annoys me is that I had a heavy rucksack with wet weather gear, tent and food to survive for a few days and yet I did not know that a carrier bag was all you need. May be they were not on a D of E expedition.
Derek

there's a telling line in Yvon Chournard's (superb) book Climbing Ice: "leave the '10 essentials' and other impedimenta behind"... people do often carry far too much - DoE folk in paricular. That's not to say you should climb Tower Ridge in winter in a pair of flip-flops and a metallica t-shirt, but you don't necessarily need more kit than Scott of the Antarctic. Maybe the latter would have made it if he'd travelled lighter after all.

Edit : I'm no ice climber though like the the picture books but frequent Scotish mountains for winter walking at least

 

[classic33]

Nowadays, thank goodness, we have the permit scheme. Leaders who want to take scouts (beavers/cubs/scouts/explorers) walking have to hold the appropriate permit for the terrain they are going to walk in. This means they have been assessed by experienced District Advisors, and have demonstrated good risk assessment/management abilities for all eventualities that may arise when walking in remote/difficult locations. A lot of leaders moan about not being allowed to take scouts out for a hike, but these are the ones who are usually not aware of the potential risks and what to do about them.

We recently had a fairly experienced Scout leader who wanted to get his hill walking permit fail the assessment because he allowed someone (an adult, I hasten to add) in his walking group to wear jeans. Most people wouldn't bat an eyelid at this, but pure cotton (ie denim) absorbs water like you wouldn't believe and doesn't want to let it go. In a mountainous area this means cold wet legs. Which means hypothermia in a very short amount of time.

Do what I did, waterproof them.

The Form

 

[Andy_R]

Do what I did, waterproof them.

The Form

That would be like wearing Patrol Tent canvas on each leg. And where the hell are you going to put the sod cloths? No thank you

 

[TheDoctor]

Sorry, are we really advising sensibly?

From the point of view of someone who has had to go out after someone has got lost, and then relied on their trusty mobile to get them out of trouble.
Far too many go out ill equipped for where they are going. Shorts and sandals are not the best walking wear in mid November.

He had a heart attack. Are you suggesting he should have taken a defibrillator and possibly a cardiovascular team?

 

[classic33]

That would be like wearing Patrol Tent canvas on each leg. And where the hell are you going to put the sod cloths? No thank you

Try it, the results may just surprise you.

The Form M as previously used by the S.A. was called into question by the BMC. It relied only on the word of the person filling it in and very little else. Local representative of theirs was appalled at the system in use. Mine was copied, along with the form filled by me and sent to the higher officers within the BMC.

 

[Profpointy]

Sorry, are we really advising sensibly?

He had a heart attack. Are you suggesting he should have taken a defibrillator and possibly a cardiovascular team?

quite! Sometimes i really is one of those things. Whilst I'm sure it's sad for the family, it's maybe some comfort to know they departed whilst doing something they loved; living life as it's meant to be lived, risks and all.

 

[Tim Hall]

Try it, the results may just surprise you.

The Form M as previously used by the S.A. was called into question by the BMC. It relied only on the word of the person filling it in and very little else. Local representative of theirs was appalled at the system in use. Mine was copied, along with the form filled by me and sent to the higher officers within the BMC.

But self assessment Form M went out in about 2001, so not really relevant to the discussion. Mind you, very little of this thread is relevant to the discussion (deaths on Helvellyn)

 

[classic33]

Sorry, are we really advising sensibly?

He had a heart attack. Are you suggesting he should have taken a defibrillator and possibly a cardiovascular team?

Suggest you read the last post where this was questioned.

However if you think the clothing as described is adequate for mountain weather in mid-November, we are still in October by the way. Carry on wearing it.

 

[Andy_R]

Try it, the results may just surprise you.

The Form M as previously used by the S.A. was called into question by the BMC. It relied only on the word of the person filling it in and very little else. Local representative of theirs was appalled at the system in use. Mine was copied, along with the form filled by me and sent to the higher officers within the BMC.

Whe properly waterproofed, canvas (100% cotton) is amazing stuff.....but when the waterrproofing breaks down, then maybe not so....and it tends to be a gradual insidious process...I'm sure you can remember the days of "dont touch the canvas, it'll leak" when inside a patrol tent

 

[classic33]

But self assessment Form M went out in about 2001, so not really relevant to the discussion. Mind you, very little of this thread is relevant to the discussion (deaths on Helvellyn)

I agree. I replied in general to the attitude taken by some who take to the hills.

 

[Profpointy]

Suggest you read the last post where this was questioned.

However if you think the clothing as described is adequate for mountain weather in mid-November, we are still in October by the way. Carry on wearing it.

what clothing are we arguing about here?

 

[Andy_R]

adequate for mountain weather in mid-November, we are still in October by the way. Carry on wearing it.

erm......weather changes as fast as a fast thing, especially on the fells. What may be "October weather" in Glenridding might be "January weather" at Red Tarn.

 

[classic33]

what clothing are we arguing about here?

"Shorts and sandals are not the best walking wear in mid November." taken from an earlier post, but quoted above.

erm......weather changes as fast as a fast thing, especially on the fells. What may be "October weather" in Glenridding might be "January weather" at Red Tarn.

I'm aware of that. Just pointing out that the clothing being talked about, can't be that involved in the OP.