Help with Gears/Sprockets...

[Red Light]

In case you did not know, hubs that use the 5 speed cassette you linked to not only haven't been made for around 25 years, they were also only made for only a very short period at the time. They are, for all intent and purpose, imho obsolete.

But they did exist. They preceded hyperglide which came in in 1990 IIRC and I thought were introduced with SIS in 1984 BICBW

I see from your link one shop in USA is selling it. How many places did you find in the world that is selling one?

But of course you are right that technically they do exist, if you think that info is somehow helpful to the OP.

I didn't look further than the first one I came across but then you only need one to exist to disprove a statement that they don't exist. But it is old stuff so going to be about as rare as original XT thumbies. As for the OP you never know what you are going to come across on an old wheel. So its always helpful IME to be aware of the unexpected. YMMV

 

[SteelUn]

As for the OP you never know what you are going to come across on an old wheel. So its always helpful IME to be aware of the unexpected. YMMV

I think that is not true, because the OP did provide a photo of his freewheel. Those early cassettes have nothing outside the smallest sprocket, because that sprocket also acts as the lock ring.

 

[Red Light]

I think that is not true, because the OP did provide a photo of his freewheel. Those early cassettes have nothing outside the smallest sprocket, because that sprocket also acts as the lock ring.

Whatever, I find it difficult to see what the fixing arrangement is on the photo to be honest.

 

[Shinobi]

opps, didn't mean to start a tiff here! lol handbags away!

So, tonight i took the wheels off to get an idea of things (and so i can take them up to my da's house to see if he has the right tools for the job)

The main thing i noticed while doing this, is something i cant remember if it is supposed to happen or not.....

basically, when i unbolted the rear wheel there was a lot of pressure on the frame that was released when i twisted the bolts, on both sides, like the frame kind of opened up by a good few mm on either side... i'll include a pic with some crude arrows to show what i mean....

I was a little surprised at this, and had thought that it would slot in pretty much flush, and just require held in place with the bolts.

Should this be happening, or does this mean that the hub is too small, and therefore putting too much unnecessary pressure on the rear of the frame? or will this extra space be occupied when i get a 7 speed (freewheel?) gear setup?
I do see there is a slight difference in width between the front and rear now that i have them off (ie. the front tyre is a few mm chunkier, but I'm not sure about the actual rim yet as the tyres haven't been removed tonight)

or..... the bolts that are flush with the hub in the pic , are they supposed to screw out the way to touch the inside of the frame before the outside bolts are tightened?
(i know this one must be a bit of a noob question but you seem to be getting me some pretty sound advice so far!)

As I dont have access to a chain whip + work bench yet, its still not the best pic for identifying until i can separate the gears from the wheel i guess, but heres a better pic of the old worn out "donor" gears on the bike after i removed the wheel, if it helps your debate along any lol (although it would seem the majority have already deemed it to be a freewheel anyway)

 

[Red Light]

You really need a new wheel The OLN (over lock nut) distance is for an older narrower frame. You could build it out with spacers etc but its a lot of work and the chain line will probably end up wrong etc. which turns it into one of those cascade jobs where each thing you do leads to more money needing to be spent on the knock on effects.

In which case you don't need to take the cluster off. It doesn't obviously look like a screw-on freewheel as there does not appear to be any room for a splined tool to fit over the nut into the centre of the cluster and there are no sockets for a dog tool. it looks like it may be the smallest sprocket that screws off using a chain whip on the smallest cog in one direction and a chain whip on a larger cog in the opposite direction.

But before you spend anything give the bike a really good check over. If the seller can throw in a wheel like that its quite likely there are other bodges they've done too that could be expensive.

 

[Red Light]

I see from your link one shop in USA is selling it. How many places did you find in the world that is selling one?

Seems there's still a few of them around judging by this thread from 2008:

"I can take a picture later tonite you you need it. I've done two today already!"

 

[SteelUn]

It doesn't obviously look like a screw-on freewheel as there does not appear to be any room for a splined tool to fit over the nut into the centre of the cluster and there are no sockets for a dog tool.

Again I think that is not true. It is not uncommon for really cheap freewheels to have no removal tool fittings at all, as described by Park here.

 

[Shinobi]

You really need a new wheel The OLN (over lock nut) distance is for an older narrower frame. You could build it out with spacers etc but its a lot of work and the chain line will probably end up wrong etc. which turns it into one of those cascade jobs where each thing you do leads to more money needing to be spent on the knock on effects.

Agreed.... and heres something else i had not seen -

As you can see, i've circled a done in spoke there - its loose (has room to move) against the rim too, which im guessing is unsafe and may cause inner tube damage?

It doesn't obviously look like a screw-on freewheel as there does not appear to be any room for a splined tool to fit over the nut into the centre of the cluster and there are no sockets for a dog tool. it looks like it may be the smallest sprocket that screws off using a chain whip on the smallest cog in one direction and a chain whip on a larger cog in the opposite direction.

My da cant even find the 1 chain whip he had... which would mean buying/making 2 of them.... so....

But before you spend anything give the bike a really good check over. If the seller can throw in a wheel like that its quite likely there are other bodges they've done too that could be expensive.

the only other thing i can see is the bar grips really,

Logically i'm starting to think i may be better cutting my losses here + shoving the frame/forks ect up on ebay or the whole thing sold as seen on gumtree or summit....

I mean, i only spent 50 sheets on the bike... (i know i know.... you get what you pay for!) and its proved to be a royal pain in the arse.

so.... Options...

• If i were to fix the wheel/gears (or attempt to):

Chain whips on ebay average out at 5-7 bucks each, so i'd need 2 of them, theres 10-15 quid straight away (maybe even to find it does not remove), the freewheel's are 10-15 bucks... the spokes bent, so seven if i did decide to try and space it out, it's a dodgy wheel anyway.

• what about a whole new wheel?

So, the wheel + tyre are the wrong size for the bike anyway... so the most logical solution is new wheel time. (if this is financially practicle on a £50 bike)
what are your thoughts on this?

The front wheel states "ETRTO 559x20 6061-T6" - i cant see anything on the net with this specific size referring to a rear wheel - more importantly, i cant see anything on ebay, and the price of new wheels seems to outweigh the original purchase.

The tyre on the front reads "(50-559) 26x1.95 to fit H/E"

so does this mean i am looking for a 22" wheel (if ETRTO measurement is in mm) or do i go by tyre size as 26" appears to be a lot more common wheel size (the bike is small so im guessing its not the latter... but hoping it is as they are a lot more easily available 2nd hand)

• Give up

see if the recycle-a-bike place would accept a part exchange if i was honest with them about the wheel, as they could use all the rest of the bike as donor parts, or more likely... have a wheel to fit it in shop, and a bike to properly fit me. this way i will loose out on my £50 bucks, but wont have wasted any extra on an ultimately temporary bike for me that is a bit on the wee side.

i dont like giving up.... but i also dont like wasting money even more!

grumble grumble.

 

[Red Light]

My da cant even find the 1 chain whip he had... which would mean buying/making 2 of them.... so....

I'm not even sure its a two chain whip job and not one of those freewheels with no removal means suggested earlier. So don't waste the money until you are sure. You can improvise for a chain whip with a chain with the end clamped in a vice and looped over a sprocket.

I mean, i only spent 50 sheets on the bike... (i know i know.... you get what you pay for!) and its proved to be a royal pain in the arse.

I've bought some very nice bikes at the CTC York Show auction for less than that. One I use a lot, nice handmade frame, Mirage groupset, handbuilt wheels, Ringle seatpost. Cost me £30.

• what about a whole new wheel?

Well you are going to spend about £30 for the wheel, £15 for the cassette, £15 for the tyre, £4 for the inner tube, £10 for the chain, £5 for the lockring tool making it about £80 to fix this. So you have to ask yourself are you going to be better off doing that or putting the £80 towards buying a working bike.

If you have a bike recycling place or a friendly bike shop you could try asking if they've got an old spare wheel lying around.

If you are going to sell it on eBay or Gumtree, be honest about the problem rather than trying to find a replacement sucker for it.

 

[HLaB]

Is there anyone here from scotland know of any second hand parts places (I guess the main online auction sites may be a shout) but i hate waiting for stuff to be delivered! - I've heard about "recycle-a-bike" places that take donations/abandoned bikes from the city you see without wheels ect... i probably should check them out, but don't know if they do parts or keep them for fixing the other bikes they get in...


Thanks,
Ross

This place may help you out but its in Edinburgh which may or may not be ideal.

Edit Oh I see they have a few places

Based in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Perth

 

[Shinobi]

Well you are going to spend about £30 for the wheel, £15 for the cassette, £15 for the tyre, £4 for the inner tube, £10 for the chain, £5 for the lockring tool making it about £80 to fix this. So you have to ask yourself are you going to be better off doing that or putting the £80 towards buying a working bike.

am i allowed to link to ebay here to give an idea of what i was looking this morning (ie there are full second hand rear wheel set-ups around the £30 mark - but not sure if the sizings I'm looking at are right) at or is a mod gunna get irate with me a delete my post?

If you have a bike recycling place or a friendly bike shop you could try asking if they've got an old spare wheel lying around.

That was my other thought... there is one, as mentioned by HLaB there is one organisation, the same one i have been looking at in scotland that takes all scrap bikes to fix.

They even come out and cut abandoned ones off the railings off tenement flat closes (with all tenants go-aheads of course) - the glasgow one is only open to the public on saturdays for bike sales during my work hours, but after looking at their site it would appear they have a 2nd hand parts sale every wednesday 4pm-8pm which is handy, as i'm off tomorrow anyway... this is probably going to be the best first line of call for me, at least to compare with the ebay prices. (probably better as no p+p charge actually)

They also actually offer a service called "fix your own session" where they rent out a workstation at something like £4p/h with all the tools you need and a mechanic on hand to help if you get stuck... wich personally i think is a very very good idea, especially for a town centre where most people are in flats and dont have the room for specialist equipment... and i guess teaches people self maintenance under a controlled environment

If you are going to sell it on eBay or Gumtree, be honest about the problem rather than trying to find a replacement sucker for it.

Yeah, of course... i wouldn't want to be responsible for any accidents specifically if it is the wheel that is the issue here and as the bike is a bit smaller it would most likely be a young'un that got it

 

[Shinobi]

also - when i go tomorrow to check, should i take my own front wheel as reference or will i need to take the frame in? or will a note with the sizes i have quoted here suffice?

 

[Red Light]

also - when i go tomorrow to check, should i take my own front wheel as reference or will i need to take the frame in? or will a note with the sizes i have quoted here suffice?

If you've got access to their workshop etc go for it and learn about maintenance along the way. I'd be inclined to bung the back wheel back in and take the whole bike in. You can always donate the wheel to their spare parts bin.

 

[Shinobi]

If you've got access to their workshop etc go for it and learn about maintenance along the way. I'd be inclined to bung the back wheel back in and take the whole bike in. You can always donate the wheel to their spare parts bin.

cheers, i was planning on taking the rear wheel anyway to give them anyway... might have an issue getting parked close as its in the Barra's (for those of you who dont know thats glasgow's main stall/junk market) and i think i would struggle to carry all the parts very far now i've puled it all apart!

Well you are going to spend about £30 for the wheel, £15 for the cassette, £15 for the tyre, £4 for the inner tube, £10 for the chain, £5 for the lockring tool making it about £80 to fix this.

i've pulled the weel apart and kept the innertube, and although the tyre is worn, i would say its still got a good few miles left on it, so i'm looking at the sizes on them...


The front tyre reads;
(50-559) - 26x1.95 (this still has the wee spikey bits on it)
the rear reads;
(50-559) - 26x1.90/2.00


Will i not be able to keep this tyre/inner for the new wheel when i get it? it does look a little bit skinnier, but it could just be the fact the grips are worn off a bit.

I would check the chain - it should measure no more than 12 1/16th inch over 12 links. If it is you will need to replace both together. You might also check the chain width to make sure its not too wide for a 7 speed.

I'll have a look at the chain properly before going to the shop as you suggested earlier now that i found my measuring tape... is there a specific width i need to look for on the chain?

 

[Shinobi]

Just thought i would check back and let you know what i did, I ended up going to the recycle a bike place yesterday, It's called the Glasgow Bike Shed, and its just on the rear side of the barrowlands for any of those in scotland. it has around 6-8 workstations there, all bar 1 were full when i was there, and had all the tools for people to use, looked quite a bit easier than upside down bike in the living room with the missus trying to watch TV! haha

Anyway, I took the whole bike in the car incase, but only took the rear wheel to the shop initially, as well as the dimensions for the one i wanted... I gave him the older wheel, one of the guys jumped upstairs (that looked like a graveyard of hundreds and hundreds of part bikes - take note if you run a vintage bike with hard to find parts!) and returned a few minutes later with a whole quick-release rear wheel, 135mm hub, cassette, tyre and tube, not in the best of nick, but none the less - the right size, and he had actually took it off the same bike in a different couler to mine! It sounded like they may have been selling the bike in the next lot as he had to ask someone if it was ok to take it from the bike.

got it for £10, i dont know if thats the same price i would have got it for without giving him the other wheel or not, but to get started and keep the price of the bike down, a great deal in my opinion

Heres the wheel, as you will see, the tyre was pretty much shot, and the gears are a bit worn, as well as a few scuffs, but i kept the tyre/tube of the old wheel, and the tyre is the correct size anyway, so i wasn't to bothered about that;

as you can see, the gears should be removable;

the gears;

and the flyer the guy gave me;

It was a bit of a pain as i had to re-set all the work i had did with both the front and rear derailleurs, managed to get my hands on a free spoke tool and trued the wheel to the best of my abilities, and re-set the rear break cables... so chain works with it fine, its changing up and down every gear just fine now, just need to get some cheap bar grips now, and the bike will be restored to its (almost) former glory... checked ebay today and the same bike has recently gone for between £60-150, so it looks like i can take a breath and relax, although i initially got ripped off, I've still managed to keep it affordable and may even get a profit on the re-sale value once i decide if its for me to upgrade or not.

While I was at my da's i also dug out the garage a folding bike i was given free as a christmas gift for working at ikea a few years ago... (It's a blue raleigh with a yellow "IKEA" decal haha as if anyone would sport that around glasgow!) I must say, they always did give great gifts other years! Anyhoo, it was still in the box, so I took the decals off it, gunna pop that on the bay and see if i can re-claim some dosh for it, it might even pay for my wee project i took on in full if not more!

so the week has gone from cruddy, to pretty cushty!

heres the bike i dug out.... nice day for photos too!

As you can see, in much better nick than the one i bought, but at 6'3" a folding bike just doesn't quite cut it! think i would look like a clown on one of those mini monkey bikes haha