Thanks for that. A friend of mine who's a recent convert to cycling (Robbie on the Martletts FNRttC for those that met him) is looking at a GPS so this is useful info. I'm surprised that the touch screen even works at all with gloves, so kudos to Garmin.
Garmin 800 Any point
- Thread starter decca234uk
- Start date
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Thanks for that. A friend of mine who's a recent convert to cycling (Robbie on the Martletts FNRttC for those that met him) is looking at a GPS so this is useful info. I'm surprised that the touch screen even works at all with gloves, so kudos to Garmin.
DrSquirrel
Guest
Re-read please.
705's
£0-£100 was the amount less than the price new.
Sorry.
New is around the 250 mark these days, second hand I agree - some sell for £0 less than new! Which is one of the reasons I haven't bought one yet second hand.
Hi Decca234uk,
I've been toying with the idea but like you are struggling with justification.
A thought I've had is whether a SmartPhone would actually be better? Some have excellent screens, can have apps for planning routes, and once at a destination can do a quick search to find the nearest pubs
Not actually done a price comparison, and you'd have to factor in the cost of data through your mobile provider, but it's something I'd look into before buying.
Hope that helps,
MG
GPS chips in phones suck.
Battery sucks.
Not waterproof/shock proof.
Most mounts suck, no specific mounts made.
Screen is too big (battery).
Screens won't work well with gloves (if not at all).
Yes you can get bluetooth HR units but battery life will suffer (and they cost 5x more than a regular HR band).
No barometer for height (GPS alt sucks).
No CAD, etc etc.
You're relying on each application/API to do the calculations correctly and to the highest accuracy until the output.
Takes up loads of space on your bars etc.
edindave
Über Member
- Location
- Auld Reeker
I went from a Garmin Forerunner 405 watch to a 705 Edge. The touch bezel on the watch was a nightmare in the rain - unless you locked the bezel it would change menus etc especially in heavy rain.
How does the touch screen on the Edge 800 fare in the rain?
How does the touch screen on the Edge 800 fare in the rain?
OP
OP
decca234uk
New Member
- Location
- Leeds
Thanks for taking the time to answer. You've educated me. That's not a bad idea mgarl but if I bought a Garmin I'd like all the bells and whistles, like distance and other training data. Thanks for explaining about the touch screen Ian, I was wondering how hard it would be to operate with heavy gloves on. I'll investigate further and see if I can convince myself that I really really need one.
DrSquirrel
Guest
Even the older cheaper units have the "training data", the bells and whistles are if it supports CAD/HR (205 doesnt), barometric altimeter (205 doesnt), topographical maps (205 500 305 doesnt), Power meter support (these cost LOADS, 705 and up).
Certain things are more like bells and waste your money - ie. touch screen (800), wirelessly share your workouts with other units (who ever wants to do this? 705+)
They all record your route, tell you your speed/time, navigate waypoints, race against previous tracks (ghost/virtual partner). They even have a "return to home" option which retraces your path which could be handy for exploring if you get lost (granted it won't be a loop).
The most major difference between the groups imo is the mapping 205/305/500(no maps) vs 605/705/800 - and I reckon if you need mapping enough you will already know. If its just a case of "maybe" then you might be better off looking for a second hand older ones.
Have a budget?
205 new £110
305 + HR 2nd hand under the £100 mark
305 + HR + CAD new ~£135-160
500 new £135 +HR £165 +CAD+HR £170
605 new £160
705 new +HR £220 +HR+CAD £232 (second hand prices are close to new sadly)
800 new £300
DrSquirrel
Guest
Yea thats a point.
Although you can export OpenStreetMap - which isn't 100% but will suffice for free
Really nice analysis doc. Sums it up well.
I've a 305. When (rather than if) it dies, I will look at the 800 because I am interested in the additional mapping functionality. I've been impressed by the reviews of the 800 I've read so far.
I'm just hoping that when my 305 dies, that the 800 will have been out a while and all of the inevitable teething problems have been ironed out and there are some reliability reviews to read. My main concern with the 800, as I've said on another thread, is it's long term durability. It's a lot of cash to part with for something that might pack up 1 month out of warranty.
Funny, I've seen a few postings on different forums from people who already seem to 'know' what the 800 will be like "the touchscreen will be rubbish" "won't be able to use with gloves" "no improvement over 705" etc.
Anyway, there are some fairly significant changes. On the 800 you will be able to create and scale your own maps, so next time you get a printed route sheet, or one of those council provided PDFs of local paths etc, you can easily convert them into a digital map that your 800 can read using tools provided by Garmin. Same goes for the trail centre PDFs.
Like Jimbo says, there is a temp sensor, that's quite important to me but I'm not going to justify it.
The 800 is compatible with Discoverer maps, that means proper full OS mapping - not the Garmin Topo junk.
The 3/4 turn mount is a massive improvement, it doesn't rattle and is far more secure and doesn't suffer from the broken tab issue of the inferior 205/305/605/705 mounts. There is also a wriststrap accessory for you runners, currently I use my 705 for running but hold it in my hand (tried it in pocket, but results in some inaccuracies).
The 800 also has a far more accurate GPS chip, faster from start up etc.
The screen is bigger on the 800, while the overall size of the unit is about the same but thinner. The resolution is (will have to check) higher, too.
The 800 has higher colour depth, so everything isn't a general pasty pink/yellow/blue like it is on the 705.
Finally, it works very well indeed with full thick winter gloves on.
I'm upgrading and hope to recoup 70% of the cost by selling my 705.
Anyway, there are some fairly significant changes. On the 800 you will be able to create and scale your own maps, so next time you get a printed route sheet, or one of those council provided PDFs of local paths etc, you can easily convert them into a digital map that your 800 can read using tools provided by Garmin. Same goes for the trail centre PDFs.
Like Jimbo says, there is a temp sensor, that's quite important to me but I'm not going to justify it.
The 800 is compatible with Discoverer maps, that means proper full OS mapping - not the Garmin Topo junk.
The 3/4 turn mount is a massive improvement, it doesn't rattle and is far more secure and doesn't suffer from the broken tab issue of the inferior 205/305/605/705 mounts. There is also a wriststrap accessory for you runners, currently I use my 705 for running but hold it in my hand (tried it in pocket, but results in some inaccuracies).
The 800 also has a far more accurate GPS chip, faster from start up etc.
The screen is bigger on the 800, while the overall size of the unit is about the same but thinner. The resolution is (will have to check) higher, too.
The 800 has higher colour depth, so everything isn't a general pasty pink/yellow/blue like it is on the 705.
Finally, it works very well indeed with full thick winter gloves on.
I'm upgrading and hope to recoup 70% of the cost by selling my 705.
DrSquirrel
Guest
Nothing funny about it - we are the all knowing yet uncapable of making basic assumptions from garmins specs.
Do you have experience with any touch screens at all? In general they suck, and not just to do with if they work with gloves or not... on the road its easier to place your fingers around a tactile button than it is on a flat surface as your fingers wobble about + requiring you to look etc etc
(and btw you cannot rely on owners to tell you how well it works because most people dont want to say their £300+ toy is not that good)
705 can already do what you are talking about regarding mapping (just a bit manual).
3/4 turn indeed looks good - I wish I had it, though broken tabs still holds the units for now
Bigger isn't always better, why not mount a 7" tablet on the stem...
Better chipset is of course good - not that we need higher accuracy its already good enough as it is, and relying on GPS for speed is still piss poor, wheel speed sensor is much better.
No one's making you buy one! And I'm not going from Garmin specs, I'm going from hands on reviews from people who don't own them, they were given them to test. At least one of the testers has an excellent track record on equipment reviews and says it how it is - google DCRainmaker.
Bikeradar also had a look at one I think, ISTR that they were generally complimentary about the touchscreen with gloves issue as has another person further up this thread who has actually used one.
I'd rather go from actual hands on info than theorising from a spec sheet.
The unit is the same size, but the display area is bigger. That's not the same argument as putting a tablet on the bars. But you know that already.
Bikeradar also had a look at one I think, ISTR that they were generally complimentary about the touchscreen with gloves issue as has another person further up this thread who has actually used one.
I'd rather go from actual hands on info than theorising from a spec sheet.
The unit is the same size, but the display area is bigger. That's not the same argument as putting a tablet on the bars. But you know that already.
DrSquirrel
Guest
(unfortunately we haven't yet taken our test unit off-road so we can't say how well it works with full-finger gloves). - well that just shows how good the bikeradar test was
posters above don't say how they tested it (riding or not)
what about in the rain?
without looking?
I've seen the DCRainmaker tests with gloves - still want to see them fat fingers touching the menus on the bike though
I tend to poo-poo review sites as there is a general bias towards manufacterer as manufacterers don't like to give devices out to sites that mark their products down.
posters above don't say how they tested it (riding or not)
what about in the rain?
without looking?
I've seen the DCRainmaker tests with gloves - still want to see them fat fingers touching the menus on the bike though
I tend to poo-poo review sites as there is a general bias towards manufacterer as manufacterers don't like to give devices out to sites that mark their products down.
400bhp
Guru
Well I'll guess we'll see soon for ourselves. I just went out for a 25 mile lunchtime jaunt and made a mental note of whenever I interacted with my 705. I only hit start at the beginning and hit stop at the end, come to think of it, that's about normal for me - doesn't mean I don't want to have the facility to change options on the move.
By the way, the procedure to add PDF maps to the 705 is very lengthy and convoluted, the tool that Garmin have released to do it makes it all point and click, but it's only compatible with the 800s way of managing maps. I think I might just actually buy the Discoverer UK OS mapping product so I can use the device when in the hills.
By the way, the procedure to add PDF maps to the 705 is very lengthy and convoluted, the tool that Garmin have released to do it makes it all point and click, but it's only compatible with the 800s way of managing maps. I think I might just actually buy the Discoverer UK OS mapping product so I can use the device when in the hills.
jiggerypokery
Über Member
- Location
- Solihull
Lets clear up a few touch screen issues here. Working in the mobile devices manufacturing industry I've spent the last five years mucking about with touch screens and beliebe me when I say that in the last two years things have changed mightily. The simple reason that the 800 will work with your gloves is because garmin have been smart and have used low end resistive technology rather than high end capacitive (iPhone or HTC desire) technology.
I'm making an assumption here that the Garmin 800 is a resistive touch screen device (as I haven't seen one), this meaning that it comprises of of two flexible sheets coated with a resistive material and separated by an air gap or microdots. When contact is made to the surface of the touchscreen, the two sheets are pressed together, registering the precise location of the touch. Because the touchscreen senses input from contact with nearly any object (finger, stylus/pen, palm) resistive touchscreens are a type of "passive" technology.For example, during operation of a four-wire touchscreen, a uniform, unidirectional voltage gradient is applied to the first sheet. When the two sheets are pressed together, the second sheet measures the voltage as distance along the first sheet, providing the X coordinate. When this contact coordinate has been acquired, the uniform voltage gradient is applied to the second sheet to ascertain the Y coordinate. These operations occur within a few milliseconds, registering the exact touch location as contact is made.Because the touchscreen responds to pressure on its surface, contact can be made with a finger or any other pointing device.
If Garmin had used a capacitive touch screen this would require skin to screen contact, this is because a capacitive touchscreen panel consists of an glass insulator coated with a transparent conductor such as indium tin oxide. As your porky digit is also a conductor touching the surface of the screen results in a distortion of the body's electrostatic field field, measurable as a change in capacitance. The locationj of the touch is then sent to a controller for processing and the touch is mapped and actioned.
So there ya go, it's all in the touch...as my old dad told me before i went on my first date!
As it stands I have to go with 'dodgy' in that I fondle with my 705 at the start and the end of the ride and that's about it really as the unit flips between map and stats at will as you come up to a route change.
I'm making an assumption here that the Garmin 800 is a resistive touch screen device (as I haven't seen one), this meaning that it comprises of of two flexible sheets coated with a resistive material and separated by an air gap or microdots. When contact is made to the surface of the touchscreen, the two sheets are pressed together, registering the precise location of the touch. Because the touchscreen senses input from contact with nearly any object (finger, stylus/pen, palm) resistive touchscreens are a type of "passive" technology.For example, during operation of a four-wire touchscreen, a uniform, unidirectional voltage gradient is applied to the first sheet. When the two sheets are pressed together, the second sheet measures the voltage as distance along the first sheet, providing the X coordinate. When this contact coordinate has been acquired, the uniform voltage gradient is applied to the second sheet to ascertain the Y coordinate. These operations occur within a few milliseconds, registering the exact touch location as contact is made.Because the touchscreen responds to pressure on its surface, contact can be made with a finger or any other pointing device.
If Garmin had used a capacitive touch screen this would require skin to screen contact, this is because a capacitive touchscreen panel consists of an glass insulator coated with a transparent conductor such as indium tin oxide. As your porky digit is also a conductor touching the surface of the screen results in a distortion of the body's electrostatic field field, measurable as a change in capacitance. The locationj of the touch is then sent to a controller for processing and the touch is mapped and actioned.
So there ya go, it's all in the touch...as my old dad told me before i went on my first date!
As it stands I have to go with 'dodgy' in that I fondle with my 705 at the start and the end of the ride and that's about it really as the unit flips between map and stats at will as you come up to a route change.
