Full 20 mph city limit - a return to non drivers owning their town?

[Shut Up Legs]

Well, there's this:
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/ParkingTransportandRoads/Roads/Documents/40kmh_speed_limit_map.pdf

and then there's reality. I don't see much compliance with these speed limits, because most Melbourne motorists know damn well that the police can't be everywhere.

 

[Linford]

Got to be honest, the title of this thread about the non drivers owning the town is at odds with the fact that the very vast majority of miles done in the uk have never been done on 2 wheels ...motorised or pedal powered.

 

[Kies]

Small towns in Scotland -yeah maybe
Big towns or cities - never happen

 

[srw]

Got to be honest, the title of this thread about the non drivers owning the town is at odds with the fact that the very vast majority of miles done in the uk have never been done on 2 wheels ...motorised or pedal powered.

And when you restrict the domain to towns, and drop the myopic consideration only of 2-wheeled transport rather than 2-legged?

I'll give you a clue. The normal way to visit a town is to drive to a carpark, get out of the car and walk.

 

[Linford]

And when you restrict the domain to towns, and drop the myopic consideration only of 2-wheeled transport rather than 2-legged?

I'll give you a clue. The normal way to visit a town is to drive to a carpark, get out of the car and walk.

Oh of course, silly me, someone who drives, doesn't actually walk anywhere....

 

[GrasB]

[QUOTE 2825841, member: 45"]It works in my town.

I tire of the "it'll never work so I'll find loads of silly reasons why we shouldn't bother" mindset.[/quote]When I first moved into my old house the centre of the village it was located in was quiet & relatively relaxed where one could easily cross the roads with care and the zebra crossings were superfluous. In less than 5 years after the 20mph limit was introduced the centre had been turned into to a noisy horn blaring melee & the zebra crossings had to be upgraded to toucan crossings with light jumping cameras on them so you could cross the road on foot. The average speed through the village increased about 1mph, there was approximately the same volume of traffic going through the village in 2011 compared to 1998 & there was far more mid-day speeding in 2011.

Don't try to tell me that 20mph limits work everywhere because I KNOW they don't. In fact it was so bad it was one of the reasons I decided to move.

 

[GrasB]

Nothing works everywhere.

I think the main reason was the wide spread resistance to the 20mph limit. The main reason for the limit was to stop boy racers using the village to speed through at >60mph... if they're already ignoring the speed limit then putting a lower one in will obviously stop them.

 

[Linford]

Nothing works everywhere.

Which is a good reason why people feel that blanket limits are such a bad thing...familiarity breeds contempt.

 

[RichK]

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the plans here.

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/20mph
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-24208988

 

[Linford]

It certainly works with some approaches

It is by and large in human nature to rage against the machine. Blanket limits are the machine, and for many,rules are made to broken...

Cyclist entering road from the pavement’
The second most common contributory factor attributed to cyclists was ‘cyclist entering the road from the pavement’. This was assigned in a fifth of serious collisions and was especially common for children (over a third of serious collisions). This contributory factor includes crossing the road at a pedestrian crossing. Analysis of in-depth investigations from the ‘On The Spot’ project (Cuerden, 2008) found that ‘cyclist crossing or entering the road into the path of a vehicle’ was a frequent collision type for children. More research is required to identify why cyclists are making this manoeuvre and what can be done to reduce such collisions.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....gr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme1/ppr445.pdfClick to expand...

 

[Linford]

Anyone would think you were trying derail a thread about 20 mph speed limits with irrelevant links about cyclists (which doesn't work btw).

THis is very pertinent to the discussion...don't dismiss the value of it because you only want to see good or bad in your particular favoured group.
What I'm trying to demonstrate is that a significant number of road users whether in cars or on cycles will ignore whatever rules are written into law to rein them in. they ignore these rules because they don't like being told what to do. They also ignore these rules because they may not see any logic in the application of them where they don't see others who might report them or be put at risk.

 

[Linford]

@User13710 ... here is a live link to a duplicate source

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/adviceandinformation/cycling/facts-figures.aspx

 

[GrasB]

[QUOTE 2830686, member: 45"]And you're exaggerating.[/quote]
In the late 90s I hardly ever heard a car horn in the village, in '05 I'd hear a car horn once or twice every 10min when in the garden. It's unplesant & makes the whole village centre a very intimidating place to do your shopping. This is why it was a reason for me to move.

Crossing the road became a pain due to the fact there was more bunching of vehicles which tend not to leave gaps which overlap. Ironically the actually mid-day speed is about the same, it's just people react negatively to the 20 limit by basically crowding the car in front.

In '06 it was noticed that there had been a vehicle/pedestrian collision every 6-9 weeks since '02, most at the zebra crossings. The zebra crossings were upgraded in '07 to toucan & the number of collisions dropped

Higher average speeds came about as people ignore the 20 limit & tend to drive at a little under 40mph rather than a little over 30mph when the village wasn't busy.

 

[Linford]

In the late 90s I hardly ever heard a car horn in the village, in '05 I'd hear a car horn once or twice every 10min when in the garden. It's unplesant & makes the whole village centre a very intimidating place to do your shopping. This is why it was a reason for me lo

Crossing the road became a pain due to the fact there was more bunching of vehicles which tend not to leave gaps which overlap. Ironically the actually mid-day speed is about the same, it's just people react negatively to the 20 limit by basically crowding the car in front.

In '06 it was noticed that there had been a vehicle/pedestrian collision every 6-9 weeks since '02, most at the zebra crossings. The zebra crossings were upgraded in '07 to toucan & the number of collisions dropped

Higher average speeds came about as people ignore the 20 limit & tend to drive at a little under 40mph rather than a little over 30mph when the village wasn't busy.

you should realise now that anecdotal evidence has no value in debates here when someone can trot out some peer reviewed survey done 300 miles away in a totally different setting..

 

[GrasB]

Then clearly another traffic-calming approach was called for in your village, along with the lower speed limit.

Or, here's a novel idea, give the police enough money to actually police the area properly. Traffic calming isn't a deterrent from this behaviour, in fact it can often be seen as an extra challenge.