Froome v Wiggins

[thom]

Not challenging your opinion,just interested, but why do you say that?

That it would be a better win ? Because he'll have had to beat pure climbers and likely he'll be more exposed individually.

We all know he comes from a track background, an Olympic pursuit champion, a TT specialist, a guy who goes exceedingly fast on his own when it's flat. But he's made an extraordinary transition to be a Grand Tour rider and Tour winner, however this was largely based upon his TT prowess and the concerted efforts of his team to control a race.
The Giro parcours is different in nature to the Tour in general, with more emphasis on extreme climbing stages, steeper gradients and typically less importance on individual time trials. This Giro has 2 ITTs, the second being an uphill one that doesn't play naturally into his ITT world. It will be harder for his team to control due to the gradients and with time bonuses for the first 3 over the line, it favours those with explosive finishes too. He'll have to fight and win more battles for himself.

I think this amounts to saying it doesn't play to Wiggins' strengths as a rider in the way the Tour did last year. On top of that, arguably his team is slightly weaker than the TdF one last year and Nibali has improved too. To win the Giro would really show he can adapt his abilities as a bike rider into a different realm, making him rather unique in the modern age of riders.

Edit - I see @tigger said just about the same thing before me this time, but with fewer words ;-)

 

[themosquitoking]

Because the Parcours (route) for this years Giro is widely regarded as more difficult (mountainous) than last years Tour de France. Also there is slightly less individual Time Trial distance in the Giro which is Wiggin's forte. So if you like it's a harder race on paper for Wiggins and doesn't play to his strengths as much as last years Tour

Ah i see, cheers. Does the fact there's a team time trail help him at all?

 

[400bhp]

I said so, yes.

you did, have a banana

 

[themosquitoking]

That it would be a better win ? Because he'll have had to beat pure climbers and likely he'll be more exposed individually.

We all know he comes from a track background, an Olympic pursuit champion, a TT specialist, a guy who goes exceedingly fast on his own when it's flat. But he's made an extraordinary transition to be a Grand Tour rider and Tour winner, however this was largely based upon his TT prowess and the concerted efforts of his team to control a race.
The Giro parcours is different in nature to the Tour in general, with more emphasis on extreme climbing stages, steeper gradients and typically less importance on individual time trials. This Giro has 2 ITTs, the second being an uphill one that doesn't play naturally into his ITT world. It will be harder for his team to control due to the gradients and with time bonuses for the first 3 over the line, it favours those with explosive finishes too. He'll have to fight and win more battles for himself.

I think this amounts to saying it doesn't play to Wiggins' strengths as a rider in the way the Tour did last year. On top of that, arguably his team is slightly weaker than the TdF one last year and Nibali has improved too. To win the Giro would really show he can adapt his abilities as a bike rider into a different realm, making him rather unique in the modern age of riders.

Edit - I see @tigger said just about the same thing before me this time, but with fewer words ;-)

Yeah, but also maybe with not so much passion. Not that it wasn't a great answer, i don't understand this pro stuff much yet.

 

[tigger]

Ah i see, cheers. Does the fact there's a team time trail help him at all?

Maybe, maybe not. On paper Sky have a great Team Time Trial squad and they delivered recently at Trentino. But Sky have been below par generally in Team Time Trials. It's a variable which Wiggins cold probably do without. Wait and see what happens on the day...

 

[themosquitoking]

Maybe, maybe not. On paper Sky have a great Team Time Trial squad and they delivered recently at Trentino. But Sky have been below par generally in Team Time Trials. It's a variable which Wiggins cold probably do without. Wait and see what happens on the day...

It seems to me that apart from Wiggins sky have at least two other riders that could win.

 

[themosquitoking]

Maybe four on current form.

 

[StuAff]

Froome (and the missus) can bang on about the ifs and buts and maybes, they can say he's been designated number one for the Tour...means bugger all to the way it will play out. And quite right too. Yes, Chris is on paper a stronger climber, the route favours him more than Wiggo, and yes he's clearly on form....but anything might happen to throw one or both of them of course. If it hadn't been for that crash in 2011, Sky might have been looking at Grand Tour win number four, after all...

And as I stated in the other thread. Wiggo has every right to defend his title. He could have done a Hinault, said 'Froomie next year', then gone back on it. If his position on the Giro and Tour has shifted repeatedly, it's hardly surprising. He couldn't be sure how the early season and his training programme were going to play out. And he's well aware that he hasn't got long at the top of his riding career, can't blame him for wanting to grab more big titles for himself. No reason why a strong Giro campaign couldn't help prepare him for the Tour (Tim Kerrison's stated he'd have enough time to recover etc). Expecting him to just play nice, stick to the plan and support Froomie no matter what (as Ms Cound seems to think should happen) is nonsense. Dave Brailsford has said the possibility of having to designate one or other as Tour leader would be a nice problem to have. I can only agree. If Sky look at the two of them and think one or the the other is the best option beforehand, fair enough, but he'll have to justify that position and the other has to get the freedom to step up if needed. If they decide to let the two of them sort it out on the road, as Wiggo seems to have suggested, again, fair enough. Sky can't forget that every other team will be wanting to throw a spanner in the works. Lady Luck smiled on Sky last year- losing only one rider (and it wasn't Wiggo or Froomie after all), avoiding all the crashes, surviving Tackgate unscathed, none of the other fancied runners really delivered. It's unlikely to be so straightforward again....

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Yes of course, but Roche (and Merckx) are the only two folk to win the 'triple crown', so I did not list him as Wiggins will never manage that.

Hinault too or was that the Vuelta and Tour?

 

[Strathlubnaig]

Hinault too or was that the Vuelta and Tour?

Yes him too, I just did not write a whole list out, just illustrating my point ...Indurain, Battaglin, Pantani, Contador.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

So Robin has gone off and decided to start his own gang. He's sick of sitting in the shadows of the caped crusader.
Batman doesn't quite like the idea of joining Robin's gang as he is frickin Batman not Wingman!! He can kick any bad guys asses himself. He can manage without his sidekick.
Problem is are Batman and Robin stronger as a team and will they be able to beat the villains on their own?? Robin is unproven to date, yet he has lots of potential. Batman was a box office smash in 2012 and who would bet against him in 2013?

 

[Monsieur Remings]

I agree with Thom's points.

I like Wiggins a lot but feel that he had his opportunity to stake his claim on defending the Tour de France this year, and ducked out by focusing on the Giro, at least in regard to what he said to the Press beforehand. (I have a sneaking suspicion that this was borne of some sort of snub too, and I may be wrong, because I firmly believe he thinks the French TDF authorities - ASO, and the TDF hierarchy - were 'naive' in regard to the whole Armstrong episode. I remember his attitude when interviewed during the October unveiling, reflecting this and this coupled with his obvious respect for the Giro, may have helped shape his decision, if you can call it that).

Either way, I think he would have been fully within his rights to say that he wanted to lead Team Sky to victory again in the TDF and I believe that Sky would not have denied him. This could have paved the way for Froome to have left, knowing that his super-domestique duties in 2012 would not have been enough - as they were for Lemond for Hinault in 85' - to be told that next year would be his chance.

Now has Froome been given that assurance? I don't know but it certainly seems to point to the fact that he has and that this recent 'backtracking' from Wiggins is not what was originally planned? FWIW, I don't think there are any mind games here, potentially Team Sky have the best, most dominant team for any grand tour but this leads on to my other point.

Both Froome and Wiggins are amazing riders - see, what a revelation there guys and girls, bet you didn't know that . BUT, IMO, in order to truly dominate again like they did in 2012 in France, the team needs both Froome and Wiggins. In this sense, Wiggins could be right in that the race could determine the winner from two equally gifted, strong riders, but, it didn't in 2012 and it didn't in 1985 and that's just the way cycling has always been falling short of a team leader crashing out. The strong man is always anointed before the race in each team (or should I say leader, Greg Lemond?) and I can't help thinking this whole episode is going to be counter-productive for Team Sky given the confusion. Given the team orders last year handed to Froome at such a critical point, it seems unlikely that such an approach - namely that the race itself will determine - is the best approach, or indeed the most genuine, at least from the outset.

FWIW - and I may be wrong - Wiggins may struggle winning the Giro without Froome, whilst Froome with the support of Wiggins at the TDF will do better as would Wiggins with the support of Froome at the TDF if that's how it pans out. This takes nothing away from Wiggo, he took enough out of the bunch with his TT ability but what could, or would have happened if Froome had been let loose last year? We'll never know...

More pertinent perhaps, is why isn't Froome supporting Wiggo in Italy, in order for Wiggo to do the right thing in France?

 

[ColinJ]

More pertinent perhaps, is why isn't Froome supporting Wiggo in Italy, in order for Wiggo to do the right thing in France?

Did you watch the Vuelta last year?

 

[Monsieur Remings]

Did you watch the Vuelta last year?

I did Colin, and Wiggins wasn't there. Maybe I'm missing your point?

 

[ColinJ]

I did Colin, and Wiggins wasn't there. Maybe I'm missing your point?

The point is that Froome worked hard for Wiggins in last year's TdF. When he came to ride the Vuelta he ended up exhausted and unable to manage a spot on the podium.

If Froome rode the Giro for Wiggins, I could see him being exhausted for this year's TdF, and I can also see Wiggins being exhausted at the TdF himself having gone flat out in the Giro.

Not many people have managed to do well in 2 Grand Tours back-to-back, and I reckon that many of the few that did may well have been assisted by more than just team mates! (Pantani, for sure.)

Wiggins seems to think he can cope with 2 Grand Tours on the trot, but Froome certainly burned out when he tried it.