Finding FTP in offseason

[ballyharpat]

I did an FTP test today, just did a 20 minute one. It is good enough for me to be able to set a new FTP and generate my other ranges/zones from that. I agree that it's best to train with power, I think we have our lines crossed. Having said that, I will be using HR on the MTB, as I don't have a PM for that. I will be able to adjust my powerzone up as I see my HR decrease when working in a particular power zone. I am riding currently about 8 hours a week.
Sorry, after reading a few of the previous posts and a bit of research, I decided to go out today and do an FTP test for 20 min, I thought I had written that earlier, my bad

 

[Arsen Gere]

I did an FTP test today, just did a 20 minute one. It is good enough for me to be able to set a new FTP and generate my other ranges/zones from that.

I agree. But I think watching your HR is also a good idea. HR measures what you are producing and PM measures what comes out. A poor mans version of this is simply to use the speedo on a turbo trainer provided the setup is consistent. It's a good enough measure for most of us to use. I go back to power measurement as a cross check.

HR differences can pickup over training, illness, lack of strength/aerobic training.

For my 2p I use a framework for training and adjust it based on what my body does, not just blindly follow a timetable and hope for the best. So I am always looking backwards to work forwards. HTH.

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

I agree. But I think watching your HR is also a good idea. HR measures what you are producing and PM measures what comes out. A poor mans version of this is simply to use the speedo on a turbo trainer provided the setup is consistent. It's a good enough measure for most of us to use. I go back to power measurement as a cross check.

HR differences can pickup over training, illness, lack of strength/aerobic training.

For my 2p I use a framework for training and adjust it based on what my body does, not just blindly follow a timetable and hope for the best. So I am always looking backwards to work forwards. HTH.

" HR measures what you are producing and PM measures what comes out" What?

 

[Arsen Gere]

" HR measures what you are producing and PM measures what comes out" What?

OK what I meant was your HR is a measure of the stress your body is under. It is a response to the demand placed upon it. It is a lagging indicator. So here are some of the effects I have observed.
You can't max your heart rate in a short burst, say 30 seconds.
Heat creates stress for your body and this will be reflected in your heart rate.
If you are ill or over training your heart rate may be higher than expected or not willing to come up to expected levels.
You can't get to your max working heart rate on a bike unless you lift the cadence to get the response you need.
Heart rate rises as you train - thermal drift, acidosis etc.

So it is an indicator of how your body is doing.

Power is a measure of what you are delivering on the outside of your body, either through the pedal or back wheel and does not measure anything in terms of how it was delivered, ie what comes out, not how it got there.

So your HR is a physiological indicator and the power measure is a mechanical measure and each has it's place.

The two come in to play as a measure of efficiency and fitness. If you train at a fixed power, over time you would expect your HR to come down as you adapt, it will stop coming down when the adaptation is complete. So continuing to train at this level will maintain fitness but not improve it. So you are better to introduce a change of some kind and possibly come back and restest at that level.

If you try to increase the load because a power programme says so, you can find that you are in difficulty because you have not trained sufficiently at a lower power because you have not completed adaptation. You can increase the load too fast or waste time by not increasing it enough. Your HR can indicate that adaptation is complete.

You can use your HR as a measure of how efficient you are at delivering power. You have to be careful here in that a low cadence/big gear will reduce your HR and a higher cadence/low gear increase it for a given power output. So extremes can be misleading.
HTH

 

[Rob3rt]

HR and power are good things to consider together, they complement each other. One example, ride at a constant HR and see what happens to your power over an hour or the other way round. This can be a good indication of your base fitness. Say you ride at 85% MHR for an hour and then observe your power output, you can see what happens. If your power output remains constant, that is a good thing. If it drops off then you could do with improving your base fitness.

Training with HR is good, training with power is better, training with HR AND power is better yet!

 

[amaferanga]

HR and power are good things to consider together, they complement each other. One example, ride at a constant HR and see what happens to your power over an hour or the other way round. This can be a good indication of your base fitness. Say you ride at 85% MHR for an hour and then observe your power output, you can see what happens. If your power output remains constant, that is a good thing. If it drops off then you could do with improving your base fitness.

Training with HR is good, training with power is better, training with HR AND power is better yet!

I disagree. Training with HR is ok is that's what you've got and you're smart about it. Training with power is ace. Training with HR and power is on the most part utterly pointless.

All your HR really tells you is how fast your heart is beating.

I've been training with power for almost 3 years now. I use a Garmin and for the first year or so I always used the HR strap as well. Then I realised that I never even looked at my HR and certainly didn't use it in any analysis or for assessing fitness. There're performance analysis charts built into all good power analysis software that are so much more useful.

 

[amaferanga]

If you are ill or over training your heart rate may be higher than expected or not willing to come up to expected levels.

And? If you're ill it will quickly become apparent from how you feel and the power numbers you produce. You don't need to monitor HR.

You can't get to your max working heart rate on a bike unless you lift the cadence to get the response you need.
Heart rate rises as you train - thermal drift, acidosis etc.

So it is an indicator of how your body is doing.

You'll reach your max HR by increasing power, not cadence. Of course you can increase power by increasing cadence, but you could also increase cadence and decrease your power output and so your HR would come down.

It's an indicator of how fast your heart is beating which is a response to how hard your muscles are having to work to generate the power.

Power is a measure of what you are delivering on the outside of your body, either through the pedal or back wheel and does not measure anything in terms of how it was delivered, ie what comes out, not how it got there.

So your HR is a physiological indicator and the power measure is a mechanical measure and each has it's place.

Hmmmm. Your HR is a response to the work your body is being asked to do. It can do no more than suggest that your body is doing some kind of work and IMO provides nothing useful if you're measuring the power produced.

The two come in to play as a measure of efficiency and fitness. If you train at a fixed power, over time you would expect your HR to come down as you adapt, it will stop coming down when the adaptation is complete. So continuing to train at this level will maintain fitness but not improve it. So you are better to introduce a change of some kind and possibly come back and restest at that level.

You don't need HR here. If you're doing training where you expect your FTP (or power over any other duration) to increase then you retest as regularly as is necessary to ensure that your training doesn't start getting easier. HR is, as you've pointed out, influenced by many many things so it's not a reliable indicator of changes in your FTP. Have a few shots of espresso just before a training session and your HR may be a few beats up - doesn't mean you're less fit though obviously.

If you try to increase the load because a power programme says so, you can find that you are in difficulty because you have not trained sufficiently at a lower power because you have not completed adaptation. You can increase the load too fast or waste time by not increasing it enough. Your HR can indicate that adaptation is complete.

Eh? If it's too hard you got your FTP or levels wrong. HR is once again unnecessary.

You can use your HR as a measure of how efficient you are at delivering power. You have to be careful here in that a low cadence/big gear will reduce your HR and a higher cadence/low gear increase it for a given power output. So extremes can be misleading.
HTH

HR does not tell you how efficient you are at delivering power.

 

[black'n'yellow]

An HRM tells you how fast your heart is beating. That's all it does.

 

[Arsen Gere]

And? If you're ill it will quickly become apparent from how you feel and the power numbers you produce. You don't need to monitor HR.



1) You'll reach your max HR by increasing power, not cadence. Of course you can increase power by increasing cadence, but you could also increase cadence and decrease your power output and so your HR would come down.

2) It's an indicator of how fast your heart is beating which is a response to how hard your muscles are having to work to generate the power.



Hmmmm. Your HR is a response to the work your body is being asked to do. It can do no more than suggest that your body is doing some kind of work and IMO provides nothing useful if you're measuring the power produced.



3) You don't need HR here. If you're doing training where you expect your FTP (or power over any other duration) to increase then you retest as regularly as is necessary to ensure that your training doesn't start getting easier. HR is, as you've pointed out, influenced by many many things so it's not a reliable indicator of changes in your FTP. Have a few shots of espresso just before a training session and your HR may be a few beats up - doesn't mean you're less fit though obviously.



4) Eh? If it's too hard you got your FTP or levels wrong. HR is once again unnecessary.



5) HR does not tell you how efficient you are at delivering power.

I numbered some of your responses so I can give you my thoughts on this.

1) Try this. Set a target power below your FTP say 80% not too hard. Produce this power at a cadence of say 60 rpm for 10 mins, report back your HR. Now repeat this test with 120 rpm at the same power and report back your heart rate. I've tried this with a group of 10 people and got the same results from everybody. I'd just like you to try it because it may be useful to know how it feels.

2) Quite true, your HR indicates your are experiencing some demand caused by your muscles. HR can be used to pick up on dehydrations, improper nutrition etc. Try what I do occasionally, have nothing to eat, go out do 60 miles at a fixed power with say 1 litre of electrolyte drink and compare this to a full carb loaded 60 mile ride

3) This is a valid point. However 1 hour FTP test is quite demanding. HR is a good guide without having to repeat tests which may not form part of your training regime.

4) Again this comes down to retesting rather than simple observation. With a single discipline this may not prove too difficult but with multidiscipline stuff like triathlon it is something else to fit in so it becomes more complex. But it is worth while doing periodically.

5) OK. I have been writing about optimising cadence for runners which I think is applicable to cyclists. Muscles and ligaments have a degree of elasticity and you can test this by jumping up and down. There is a frequency which feels a lot easier and natural. That is because you begin to recover some of the energy normally disappated on impact with the ground. Taking this futher I did a number of 11 mile runs over the same terrain over period of months. I did this from a fairly fit point of view having ran a 1:29 half in January and the european tri championships in April. I did the 11 mile runs at a constant heart rate, in my case 140 bpm. I make the assumption that the energy expended is about the same ignoring the effects of temperature and wind over the months. By altering the cadence and stride length I could cut the time by 2 minutes at the same heart rate or make it worse. I would argue that over the same terrain my energy output was the same but my power output had increased, same energy shorter time so power up, my heart rate was the same and showed some efficiency increase by a reduced time. Given that I had been running the same route for over a year I don't think it is just down to a training effect.

I think this is applicable on a bike too where you can fix the power, adjust your cadence and observe your heart rate to optimise your efficiency for your physique. I've not had time to prove this and I need to develop a protocol for it.

 

[ballyharpat]

I use the HR as a gauge to where I am as to 'where I think i am', like this, without my HR info, I would not know how fast I was recovering after a hard effort, I know I have a good prep/base when my HR drops down to resting rate, 1.5 min after doing 20min at LT, I know I am ready to ste up in my zones, maybe because I had been running a bit prior to starting prep and that has stood to me. Also, I did my first 20 min LT workout 2 days ago, then I did my zone 2 (HR) for an hour to see what kind of power that was producing, today I went out, and my zone 2 HR is putting out 10% more power than 2 days ago, the harder workout was probably a benefit and, although I don't intend to do them regularly, it did benefit me.

 

[Rob3rt]

Adaptation's don't come about in 2 days. You likely just had a "good day".

 

[ballyharpat]

Maybe I just had a good day, or a bad day, maybe my legs 'opened' and I got my race legs, either way, if I weren't riding with both power and HR, I would not be riding to my full potential in the zone I am training in.