Fast winter tyre - does such a thing exist?

[dim]

Hmmm! Seems I just found a easy was to get inside the hour. I do not get that much difference between my road bike and my mtb.

my 2 road bikes are way faster than my son's Specialized Hardrock MTB, aswell as my Surly LHT
My Surly is slow as it has 26 inch wheels and weighs 19kg .... My son's Hardrock has 700C wheels but has wide heavy Marathon Greenguard tyres ....

I may fit a pair of Compass Rat Trap Pass tyres on my Surly next Spring just to see what all the fuss is about, as these get glowing reviews on USA bike forums, and are supposidly a lot faster than many other 2 inch wide tyres (I only use my Surly in Winter but may use it occasionaly next Spring/Summer) :

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/tires/26-inch/compass-26-x-2-3-rat-trap-pass/

I also want to try Vittoria Corsa Speed Open TLR on one of my road bikes next year.... these are supposed to be the fastest tyres on the market?

 

[MrGrumpy]

I`ve gone for a pair of Vittoria Voyager Hypers in a 32c, not a gravel tyre but decided that come early spring I can swap these out for something else. I`ll not be venturing much off the commute during winter to be fair and these appear to get decent reviews for tarmac use.

 

[Foghat]

For paved road use there is no such thing as a winter tyre, unless you're looking to riding on ice, in which case a steel-studded tyre is the only option.
Summer, winter, spring, autumn....your tyres don't know the difference.

Looks like you missed the memo from Continental.

Doesn't meet the 'fast' criterion of the OP (adds 8-10 minutes to my 20-mile each-way commute for the same effort), but is most definitely a non-studded winter tyre for paved road use. It copes with general ice very well, and is not as horrendously slow or heavy as studded tyres (which add 15-20 minutes to the commute) - although for extensive sheet ice (which I rarely see), studded tyres are preferable. Has the benefit of gripping reasonably well on metal surfaces too, which studded tyres can be lethal on.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Looks like you missed the memo from Continental.

Doesn't meet the 'fast' criterion of the OP (adds 8-10 minutes to my 20-mile each-way commute for the same effort), but is most definitely a non-studded winter tyre for paved road use. It copes with general ice very well, and is not as horrendously slow or heavy as studded tyres (which add 15-20 minutes to the commute) - although for extensive sheet ice (which I rarely see), studded tyres are preferable. Has the benefit of gripping reasonably well on metal surfaces too, which studded tyres can be lethal on.

Thanks for pointing out yet another marketing exercise to appease a market that doesn't understand physics.

Continental says:

For the serious winter cyclist - Handmade in Germany!
(1) We contribute all of our leading know-how as one of the leading automotive winter tyre producers in the new Top CONTACT Winter II. And it shows...

(2) The tread design's outer appearance alone is convincing due to its never-ending-grip design which extends far into the shoulder area. (3) Thanks to countless lamellae, hundreds of biting edges interlock with the terrain that you are riding on, be it tarmac, gravel or snow.

(4) The compound is adapted to work in colder temperatures and so this tyre will keep you going when other riders are spinning their wheels.

(5) Made with a supple 180 threads per inch (tpi) polyamide base casing with three plies (3ply/180tpi), plus our Poly X additional densely woven anti-puncture ply beneath the tread.

The Top CONTACT Winter is available in the MTB sizes of 26 x 1.9 & 2.2 and 700c sizes of 37 & 42mm.

• (6) For the northern winter
• (Hundreds of biting edges across all tread lugs help interlock with snowy terrain
• Including our PolyX anti puncture material under tread
• Specifically designed to work in cold temperatures

Let's look at this statement carefully: first sentence.
Know-how in automotive winter tyre production doesn't translate to automatic know-how in bicycle tyres. I'm not saying they don't know what they're doing. I'm just pointing out that they like to dupe the public into thinking that tyres are tyres and car tyre technology extends to bicycle tyre technology. It doesn't.

Second Sentence.
Here they like to play on the public's perceived knowledge about tread and grip. More aggressive is better, they say. Wrong! Smooth is better. We've discussed it here ad-infinitum. Have a look at how far the tread extends into the shoulder and show me the person that corners at 60 degrees from the vertical. In other words, the extra tread is just there to give it a gnarly look and to fool you. Be my guest, buy it.

Third sentence.
Lamellae? Continental seems to confuse the word with cuts or sipes. Lamellae is layers. Sipes are grooves/cuts. Clearly it has to be the latter. However, Continental can afford a dictionary, but prefers to use cute words to appeal to the gullible consumer who is scared of smooth tyres in winter. That same sentence now says that these layers cut into tarmac. Better not tell the roads authorities, because that sounds pretty destructive. Anyway, please buy this, it sounds plausible, doesn't it? Funny they don't promise that it interlocks with ice. That would have been nice. Rhyme not intended.

Fourth sentence. Here's an ace - the use of the world "Compound". It is so Formula-1-sh it just have to have merit. There is some merit in using rubber that doesn't go hard when the temperature drops but this particular compound doesn't perform well when the temperature goes above 7 degrees C. I doubt Continental even uses a different rubber but I'll give them that one. I do like the touch where other riders are spinning their wheels. I must say I find it difficult to not smoke out my rear tyre when I accelerate hard in winter.

Fifth sentence: Supple 180 TPI casing. High thread count casing has nothing to do with grip and everything to do with rolling resistance and puncture protection. By going high, the threads go thinner, so it contradicts the tyre's claim of being puncture resistant. You can't have your cake and eat it. I like the use of X in the Poly X. It gives it a nice scientific name. Polyester is just soooo unfashionable! Anyway, the casing has nothing to do with gripping on ice.

Sixth sentence: Funny that these tyres won't work in a southern Winter. I guess New Zealand is screwed here.

And so on.

Since Continental doesn't claim that this tyre "copes with general ice very well", but you did. I'd like you to explain what general ice is and how you've found these tyres to cope better with general ice than other tyres. Feel free to quote figures.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

faster tyres


25 miles = 40 km ....(I work metric)

so, based on my own experience of comparing durano plus to Conti 4000, the difference in speed is approx 4km/hr ....

so on a 40km journey, using the conti 4000 tyres, and assuming that there are no steep hills or heavy traffic or heavy head wind, an average speed of 30km/hr should be attainable .... the time for the 40km journey would be 80 minutes

using the Durano Plus at an average speed of 26km/hr, the journey would take you approx 92 minutes

so, a saving of 12 minutes on the 25 mile journey is possible

We've asked you this before, but perhaps you've overlooked the question. Please tell us how you've measured that and what controls you used in your experiment.

It would be nice if you could equate the increase in speed to decrease in rolling resistance. But be careful, there's a catch. Increase in speed and increase in power is not linear.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

my 2 road bikes are way faster than my son's Specialized Hardrock MTB, aswell as my Surly LHT
My Surly is slow as it has 26 inch wheels and weighs 19kg ....

19kgs?

 

[dim]

19kgs?

just weighed it again .... I made a mistake, it's 14kg as it stands, and I still need to add the dynamo hub and racks

 

[dim]

We've asked you this before, but perhaps you've overlooked the question. Please tell us how you've measured that and what controls you used in your experiment.

It would be nice if you could equate the increase in speed to decrease in rolling resistance. But be careful, there's a catch. Increase in speed and increase in power is not linear.

no scientific instruments .... used the same bike using the Durano+ on a fairly fast route of 20km with few stops and little traffic, then on another day, done the same route with very similar wind conditions (blowing in the same direction with the same windspeed) using Conti 4000 tyres

a difference of close to 4km/hr was achieved using the Conti's .... cadence and gearing used was the same (I do not have a power meter)

 

[Yellow Saddle]

no scientific instruments .... used the same bike using the Durano+ on a fairly fast route of 20km with few stops and little traffic, then on another day, done the same route with very similar wind conditions (blowing in the same direction with the same windspeed) using Conti 4000 tyres

a difference of close to 4km/hr was achieved using the Conti's .... cadence and gearing used was the same (I do not have a power meter)

OK, so your assessment is pure speculation then. This experiment is hardly standard. Further, you are claiming that a different tyre made a 20% difference to your speed. Worse still, to achieve a 20% increase in speed you have to apply an exponential increase in power. Power and speed don't have a linear relationship.
Using a few standard parameters, at 20kph cyclist X would require 58 watts of energy to maintain a stead speed. To maintain 4kph higher, i.e. your 24kph, that same cyclist would require 92 watts. That's a 58% increase in power.

Working it all back, you are saying that a different tyre made a 58% improvement in your power output at the wheel.

That is of course absurd. Let me say it again. Strava is not a scientifically-calibrated device.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Continental says:

For the serious winter cyclist - Handmade in Germany!
[...]
Let's look at this statement carefully

But but but...

It's handmade! Not only that, Handmade in Germany!

For me this conjures up images of old cobblers (no, not that sort of old cobblers) from fairy tales, with half moon glasses, living in a hut in the Black Forest.

I'm not sure that's the image their marketeer wanted to plant, but it's the one that took root.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

But but but...

It's handmade! Not only that, Handmade in Germany!

For me this conjures up images of old cobblers (no, not that sort of old cobblers) from fairy tales, with half moon glasses, living in a hut in the Black Forest.

I'm not sure that's the image their marketeer wanted to plant, but it's the one that took root.

Sorry, I overlooked that important fact. Handmade in .....Germany. That changes everything. Now it all makes sense. Me, I'm off to have another bite of my hand-salted smoked salmon snack I've just made. Perhaps with a cup of hand-pressed coffee.

 

[dim]

OK, so your assessment is pure speculation then. This experiment is hardly standard. Further, you are claiming that a different tyre made a 20% difference to your speed. Worse still, to achieve a 20% increase in speed you have to apply an exponential increase in power. Power and speed don't have a linear relationship.
Using a few standard parameters, at 20kph cyclist X would require 58 watts of energy to maintain a stead speed. To maintain 4kph higher, i.e. your 24kph, that same cyclist would require 92 watts. That's a 58% increase in power.

Working it all back, you are saying that a different tyre made a 58% improvement in your power output at the wheel.

That is of course absurd. Let me say it again. Strava is not a scientifically-calibrated device.

not speculation .... it's fact based on my own experience. You are now just arguing for the sake of arguing .... Why don't you try it yourself? .... Install a pair of Marathon+ (they are cheap, heavy and slow), and go for a ride and give it your best. Then once you have rested, put your other tyres on and do the same, then come here and post your findings

If tyres don't make much of a difference in speed, all the pro's would be riding on Durano Plus on their races, as they are cheap and are very puncture resistant

and BTW, the difference between 26km/hr and 30km/hr is 15%.

 

[Tenacious Sloth]

I'm not sure that the levels of puncture resistance needed for winter riding on a fast tyre are achievable.

I commute 13 miles each way on a CAADX four days a week, every week. There is a easonable hill (for Cambridgeshire) on my route.

In the Spring/Summer/Autumn I use self-built wheels shod with 28C Michelin Pro 4 Endurance tyres. My average speed varies dependent upon wind speed/direction and how energetic I'm feeling. Running these wheels I feel anything over 17mph average to be satisfactory, over 18mph good and anything over 19mph excellent! Occasionally, I even manage 20mph + average.

In the winter I run the stock wheels that came with the bike shod with 35C Swalbe Marathon Plus tyres for extra puncture protection. I just don't want to be messing about changing a tube in the pitch black and freezing cold. This winter wheel/tyre combination is 1kg per wheel heavier than the Summer combo. With this setup I reckon I'm about 3-4mph slower on average than when riding the summer option, usually averaging between 13.5-14.4mph. Managing over 15mph average is a rarity and 16mph almost unheard of.

I don't really care about the science behind it, I know for a fact that heavier winter wheels/tyres slow me down a lot. I base this on a large data set sourced from frequent riding on the same route in all weather conditions. For example, I reckon I'll hit 7000 miles this calendar year, a lot of these clocked up while commuting. I am willing to admit that I probably feel more lethargic in the winter and this will affect the results, but I wouldn't say this is responsible for all of the large difference in average speeds that I record.

I think the Marathon Plus tyres are as puncture resistant as it's possible to get, but are very heavy and surprisingly, not as comfortable as the narrower Michelins, although I do run both sets at about 75psi. Something else I've noticed is that the Marathon Plus tyres are much quieter than the Michelins.

Graham

 

[dim]

I'm not sure that the levels of puncture resistance needed for winter riding on a fast tyre are achievable.

I commute 13 miles each way on a CAADX four days a week, every week. There is a easonable hill (for Cambridgeshire) on my route.

In the Spring/Summer/Autumn I use self-built wheels shod with 28C Michelin Pro 4 Endurance tyres. My average speed varies dependent upon wind speed/direction and how energetic I'm feeling. Running these wheels I feel anything over 17mph average to be satisfactory, over 18mph good and anything over 19mph excellent! Occasionally, I even manage 20mph + average.

In the winter I run the stock wheels that came with the bike shod with 35C Swalbe Marathon Plus tyres for extra puncture protection. I just don't want to be messing about changing a tube in the pitch black and freezing cold. This winter wheel/tyre combination is 1kg per wheel heavier than the Summer combo. With this setup I reckon I'm about 3-4mph slower on average than when riding the summer option, usually averaging between 13.5-14.4mph. Managing over 15mph average is a rarity and 16mph almost unheard of.

I don't really care about the science behind it, I know for a fact that heavier winter wheels/tyres slow me down a lot. I base this on a large data set sourced from frequent riding on the same route in all weather conditions. For example, I reckon I'll hit 7000 miles this calendar year, a lot of these clocked up while commuting. I am willing to admit that I probably feel more lethargic in the winter and this will affect the results, but I wouldn't say this is responsible for all of the large difference in average speeds that I record.

I think the Marathon Plus tyres are as puncture resistant as it's possible to get, but are very heavy and surprisingly, not as comfortable as the narrower Michelins, although I do run both sets at about 75psi. Something else I've noticed is that the Marathon Plus tyres are much quieter than the Michelins.

Graham

thanks .... good post ... confirms my own personal experience aswell ....

BTW, I'm also from Cambridge, and have just started exploring newer areas .... where is this hill you mention?

 

[Tenacious Sloth]

BTW, I'm also from Cambridge, and have just started exploring newer areas .... where is this hill you mention?

lol. Not a real hill for those who ride in Yorkshire or Devon. I commute from Sawtry to Peterborough and it's the hill out the back of Glatton past the church heading west to the Bullock Road. Not a huge hill by national standards, but still unwelcome at 0630 on a freezing December morning. I must have been over it coming on 1000 times and it doesn't seem to get any easier.

Once you get to the west of the A1 the land becomes much more undulating, particularly the nearer you get to Rutland.

Graham