eScooter Hire Firm Pushing to End Restrictive Road Regulation, Possible Implications for e-Bikes

[confusedcyclist]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/06/scooter-hire-bird-uk-trial-east-london

I admit that this is a bit of a strech, the article doesn't talk about ebikes in particular, but if the scooter firm are able to push for relaxation of MOT compliance regulations for electric motorised transport, we might start to see some common sense regulation of other electric motor powered carriages too, DIY ebikes with >250W motors fall into this bracket.

This will be worth watching.

More powerful motors are particularly useful for cargobikes, velomobiles, etc. Even if the speed caps remain in place! Current regulations definitely limit the potential of electric motorised transport. A sensible shift in regulation could go a long way to improve air quality in urban environments, getting people out of cars and into cleaner vehicles. Admittedly, I don't hold out much hope, because the government's inaction on air pollution is embarrassing, and the petrol motor still reigns supreme.

 

[tom73]

The BBC report say's they aim to change the law within a year. Good luck with that one and that's only if the company last's that long.

As it happen's I was nearly sent flying this morning by man on an adult push scooter who was all over the pavement.

 

[Drago]

It's been tried before with the Segway. The owner of the importer took it to Court, who said "no". He took it to the court of appeal, who said "no". He was denied leave to take it to the supreme court on the basis as he was simply championing a cause rather than advancing a legal argument as to why they were legal after all.

He then rode one off a cliff and karked it. Seriously.

The existing ,laws have been clarified and make it a no-go. There's zero change of getting a new law through parliament and enacted within a year, what with all that's going on. All they've done is get some free publicity from the BBC, who fell hook, line and sinker for it.

 

[I like Skol]

I don't think the rules should be relaxed. IMO the current ebike specification is generous enough to allow an unfit person to ride at speeds similar to a fit person. Increasing this to allow untrained, unlicensed, uninsured people to whizz around on unmaintained, untested, high speed electric vehicles is a recipe for disaster. Sure it may be fine for the sensible people, but as is being regularly demonstrated in many other areas of life, society contains a large proportion of people who are not sensible and are all too good at ruining an otherwise good concept through selfishness and stupidity.

 

[confusedcyclist]

I don't think the rules should be relaxed. IMO the current ebike specification is generous enough to allow an unfit person to ride at speeds similar to a fit person. Increasing this to allow untrained, unlicensed, uninsured people to whizz around on unmaintained, untested, high speed electric vehicles is a recipe for disaster. Sure it may be fine for the sensible people, but as is being regularly demonstrated in many other areas of life, society contains a large proportion of people who are not sensible and are all too good at ruining an otherwise good concept through selfishness and stupidity.

Having a higher wattage motor will improve performance on climbs on fully laden, or otherwise heavy loads where a 250W motor would otherwise struggle. 250W motors are not powerful enough to help a heavy rider, with a pair of fully loaded panniers up a steep climb at anywhere near the 15mph limit. Yet one can legally descend at a much faster pace, so where is the logic behind that?

We already allow 400bhp motors capable of 0-60 in 3-4 seconds on public roads. Anyone with a drivers license can drive one, and they do not require special training, despite the extra power they wield. The regulations do not make sense given the harm one can commit, so why should e-bikes be regulated more harshly? You make a good point about idiots ruining it for everyone else, but that's not to say the regulations cannot be improved upon.

Why not afford a little more assistance to e-bicycles? If our priorities are to reduce congestion, increase adoption of sustainable transport and improve the health of the nation, looking again at the regulations might make sense.

Of course, it does require careful thought, because we don't want unlicensed idiots charging around with 1 tonne loads on poorly maintained bicycles, yet the regulations could be relaxed somewhat and still promote safety.

 

[Drago]

You can already have more assistance, You just need to ensure it's documented, insured, and you have the appropriate licence.

 

[confusedcyclist]

You can already have more assistance, You just need to ensure it's documented, insured, and you have the appropriate licence.

Indeed, but does it also have to be 'road worthy' in order to pass an MOT? This would be a significant barrier to entry for a sensibly speed limited ebike. Other parts of the world permit higher wattage motors. @Drago as a follower of MMM, you might appreciate that regulations differ elsewhere, and these sensible approaches can bring benefits to cyclists without the need for overzealous regulation.

To be clear, I am not opposing the need for roadworthy vehicles, there is no good reason not to have a road worthy vehicle, in fact I think there are existing laws to this effect for bicycles already. But is forcing >250W ebikes to pass an MOT necessary in all cases? How about 300W or 500W motors? We are not talking about strapping rockets to them!

 

[Pale Rider]

All they've done is get some free publicity from the BBC, who fell hook, line and sinker for it.

Er, the linked story is in The Guardian.

You do seem to have a downer on the Beeb, did David Jacobs refuse to play a request for your mum on Family Favourites?

 

[Drago]

Indeed, but does it also have to be 'road worthy' in order to pass an MOT? This would be a significant barrier to entry for a sensibly speed limited ebike. Other parts of the world permit higher wattage motors. @Drago as a follower of MMM, you might appreciate that regulations differ elsewhere, and these sensible approaches can bring benefits to cyclists without the need for overzealous regulation.

To be clear, I am not opposing the need for roadworthy vehicles, there is no good reason not to have a road worthy vehicle, in fact I think there are existing laws to this effect for bicycles already. But is forcing >250W ebikes to pass an MOT necessary in all cases? How about 300W or 500W motors? We are not talking about strapping rockets to them!

Hence "documented".

@Pale Rider I'm. Beeb man through and through! None of your awful independent broadcasting for me (Planet Rock excepted ). It's the Guardian I have my current down on,like a jilted lover.

 

[Brandane]

We already allow 400bhp motors capable of 0-60 in 3-4 seconds on public roads.

We already have 100bhp motors capable of 0-60 in 3-4 seconds on public roads.
I have one. It didn't cost a lot. It has 2 wheels, and it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on....

 

[MarkF]

I think a huge societal beneficial chance is being over looked.

I don't think electric cars will be mainstream in my lifetime unless costs drop dramatically, and why would they, if regulation are in place to ensure other options are restricted?

I don't think the target market for e-bikes is folk who have any interest in cycles/cycling, it commuters who want economical transportation, removing parking problems is an advantage too. Like the 1000's of people I work with really...... who clog up the City's roads, spend a long time at crawling speed, can't find anywhere to park on arrival and then enter work in a reet bad mood. Cycling? We have good facilities, bike cages and showers, yet I can count cyclists on one hand.

These people want e-bikes or scooters where they have to put in minimal effort, no effort would be preferable.

MOT's, for cycles,really? I have a 1962 vehicle that doesn't even need an MOT.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

In the Netherlands they where a bit too lenient with the rules on electric vehicles. Result was a vehicle called the ''stint'' A electric enige powered ''trolley'' often used by kindergartens. As the technology was very badly carried out they had error like being able to accelerate without the driver being able to stop the vehicle if a cable would break. This all lead to a terrible accident with an train and a uncontrollable stint this October.
So there is a good reason for these regulations. The stint is now forbidden

bbc news article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45586492

 

[classic33]

In the Netherlands they where a bit too lenient with the rules on electric vehicles. Result was a vehicle called the ''stint'' A electric enige powered ''trolley'' often used by kindergartens. As the technology was very badly carried out they had error like being able to accelerate without the driver being able to stop the vehicle if a cable would break. This all lead to a terrible accident with an train and a uncontrollable stint this October.
So there is a good reason for these regulations. The stint is now forbidden

bbc news article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45586492

What would be the chances of front and rear brakes failing at the same time on a bike though?

I ride a quaracycle, hydraulic brakes, but the only time I've lost a brake was when it was tampered with. It was a two mile ride with one front brake and two rear to get it repaired.

At present, the pieces that stands out from the story is "the brake failed" not brakes. And that it was hit on a level crossing, why didn't the barrier stop them? Or was it ignored.

At present it's too early to say, time will say what happened. Then we can speculate on the impact on cycles.

 

[Seevio]

Indeed, but does it also have to be 'road worthy' in order to pass an MOT? This would be a significant barrier to entry for a sensibly speed limited ebike. Other parts of the world permit higher wattage motors. <snip>

To be clear, I am not opposing the need for roadworthy vehicles, there is no good reason not to have a road worthy vehicle, in fact I think there are existing laws to this effect for bicycles already. But is forcing >250W ebikes to pass an MOT necessary in all cases? How about 300W or 500W motors? We are not talking about strapping rockets to them!

Yes, any motor vehicle needs to be roadworthy to pass an MOT. It is only a significant barrier for entry if one considers the speed limit for assistance on an Ebike to not be sensible. There comes a point where the bicycle is no longer assisting you and you are merely pedalling an electric motorcycle. EU directives have decided that this point is 15.5mph.

Other parts of the world can permit higher wattage motors if they so choose, what with being sovereign nations and all that. We can enjoy their more lax regulations when we visit.

I can understand why the limit should be purely applied to speed rather than to power as well, but there are far too many people out there who can and do demonstrate "this is why we can't have nice things". If we get to legitimate things like cargo bikes where more power would be useful, it strikes me that there appear to be very few KOMs set on cargo bikes which lead me to believe that they aren't ridden for speed.

 

[classic33]

Yes, any motor vehicle needs to be roadworthy to pass an MOT. It is only a significant barrier for entry if one considers the speed limit for assistance on an Ebike to not be sensible. There comes a point where the bicycle is no longer assisting you and you are merely pedalling an electric motorcycle. EU directives have decided that this point is 15.5mph.

Other parts of the world can permit higher wattage motors if they so choose, what with being sovereign nations and all that. We can enjoy their more lax regulations when we visit.

I can understand why the limit should be purely applied to speed rather than to power as well, but there are far too many people out there who can and do demonstrate "this is why we can't have nice things". If we get to legitimate things like cargo bikes where more power would be useful, it strikes me that there appear to be very few KOMs set on cargo bikes which lead me to believe that they aren't ridden for speed.

They aren't at present. An increase in power from a motor doesn't have to lead just to higher speeds. It can lead too more power going through the driving wheels.

I post as someone who's set off speed cameras in a 50 zone, on a cargo quad. A lot slower getting to the top though.

It might just, if used correctly, allow bigger loads and/or further distances to be covered. I've a two nine foot trailers that can be attached in tandem. However, owing to the less than flat area I live in, they're seldom used together.

Now stick an electric motor on what has become the "tractor unit". The weight of the batteries is minimal, all things considered.