Energy bill increases

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presta

Legendary Member
Well that contradicts my expectation of power factor being close to 1. Especially that laptop.

@presta might have more thoughts on the matter but i understand that power in AC circuits is volts x amps x power factor.

One of my meters has no visibility of PF so would overestimate power usage.

Power factor is True power/Apparent Power.

If you have a linear network, and a sinusiodal source, the current will also be a sinusoid, and the true power will be the product of rms voltage and current (apparent power), and the cosine of the phase angle, φ, (which is the power factor):

P = VIcosφ

However, if your load is non-linear it gets a bit more complicated than that.

A prime candidate for a non-linear load is the rectifier on the input to a power supply such as that found in any electronic equipment, so let's look at that as an example:

1666182320018.png


In the top plot of the top window, the green waveform is the sinusoidal supply voltage, and the blue waveform is the current, and as you can see, this is anything but a sinewave. The reason for this is that when the PSU output is smoothed, so the rectifier only conducts whilst the input voltage exceeds the voltage stored on the smoothing capacitor, and the current waveform is a large amplitude spike of short duration.

The red wave below is the instantaneous product of the voltage and current, showing how the power varies throughout the cycle, and it's the mean of this waveform that's the true power. This is always the case for any circuit, mean true power over an interval T1 to T2 is the mean of the instantaneous product of voltage and current:
1666184875402.png


Note that the trace math box above gives the value for the integral too, which is the energy, power being energy divided by time.

The problem is that you can't measure and multiply voltage & current thousands of times a second with a multimeter, so you need an instrument that will do it for you: a power meter. Concepts like RMS values and power factor are shortcuts devised to avoid the need for this, but only in the very specific circumstances for which they're applicable. The difference is between the average of a product and the product of two averages.

In the case of the rectifier above, your voltmeter is measuring the voltage over the whole cycle, but the majority of that is not generating power because the current is zero. If you look at the trace math boxes to the right of the plot, you will see that the true power is ~123W, but the product of rms voltage and rms current is 226W, a +84% error.

The bottom window shows what happens with a moving coil multimeter instead of one that reads true rms. The blue trace shows rectified current (because moving coil meters contain a rectifier themselves and respond to the mean of the rectified current), and the scale is then calibrated to read 1.11 times the mean because the rms value of a sinusoid is 1.11 times the rectified mean. The math box shows a mean current of ~395mA, so multiplying this by 1.11 to get what your meter would be indicating, and then by the voltage, you now get 105W, a -14% error.

These errors aren't fixed, or generalisable, because they depend on the size of the smoothing capacitor. The larger the capacitor the closer the current spike gets to the peak voltage, the shorter the duration, and the higher the peak amplitude.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
im hoping they will sort it out, so that people like octopus who supply green energy, can stop being charged for gas produced electric and can pass those savings onto customers.....but i cant see that happening
They supply gas and electric.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Gas produced electrics for obvious reasons cost a lot more than wind (for example) generated electrics.
Octopus only supplies green generated electricity - well that's what they say, I haven't verified ^_^
Gas was said to be not green, but they don't supply "green gas". Which sort of eats into their "totally green energy supplier" claim.

There's posts been deleted/removed since I posted that through.
 

Alex321

Guru
Location
South Wales
Gas was said to be not green, but they don't supply "green gas". Which sort of eats into their "totally green energy supplier" claim.

There's posts been deleted/removed since I posted that through.

They supply what they describe as "Carbon Neutral" gas - by offsetting via Renewable World.

And they also claim "Our mission is to get rid of gas for good, by transforming the system into a 100% green, all-electric one. But while we work on that, we've got a way you can reduce your carbon footprint by offsetting the emissions from the gas you use at home."

I haven't actually seen any claim by them that they are currently a "totally green energy supplier" though, only that they are working towards that.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Maybe people should find out why the price of electricty is so high……and what we use to produce electricity. Now if the rumours are true, that high price in electricty is due to the high prices in the supply of gas. Gas is used to create electricity…….but octopus only purchase green electricity, but is forced to charge for electric based on gas prices. If it was allowed to charge for electricity based on its greener purchases it would be able to charge less for its electric….

and if we are going to delete posts for sarcasm, as mine was earlier…..this forum is going to suffer from a lot of deleted posts.
There is no "green grid", according to Octopus Energy. "Their electric" comes down the same wires as everyone else's, through the same grid everyone else has to use.
 

lazybloke

Today i follow the flying spaghetti monster
Location
Leafy Surrey
Power factor is True power/Apparent Power.

If you have a linear network, and a sinusiodal source, the current will also be a sinusoid, and the true power will be the product of rms voltage and current (apparent power), and the cosine of the phase angle, φ, (which is the power factor):

P = VIcosφ

However, if your load is non-linear it gets a bit more complicated than that.

A prime candidate for a non-linear load is the rectifier on the input to a power supply such as that found in any electronic equipment, so let's look at that as an example:

View attachment 665134

In the top plot of the top window, the green waveform is the sinusoidal supply voltage, and the blue waveform is the current, and as you can see, this is anything but a sinewave. The reason for this is that when the PSU output is smoothed, so the rectifier only conducts whilst the input voltage exceeds the voltage stored on the smoothing capacitor, and the current waveform is a large amplitude spike of short duration.

The red wave below is the instantaneous product of the voltage and current, showing how the power varies throughout the cycle, and it's the mean of this waveform that's the true power. This is always the case for any circuit, mean true power over an interval T1 to T2 is the mean of the instantaneous product of voltage and current:
View attachment 665145

Note that the trace math box above gives the value for the integral too, which is the energy, power being energy divided by time.

The problem is that you can't measure and multiply voltage & current thousands of times a second with a multimeter, so you need an instrument that will do it for you: a power meter. Concepts like RMS values and power factor are shortcuts devised to avoid the need for this, but only in the very specific circumstances for which they're applicable. The difference is between the average of a product and the product of two averages.

In the case of the rectifier above, your voltmeter is measuring the voltage over the whole cycle, but the majority of that is not generating power because the current is zero. If you look at the trace math boxes to the right of the plot, you will see that the true power is ~123W, but the product of rms voltage and rms current is 226W, a +84% error.

The bottom window shows what happens with a moving coil multimeter instead of one that reads true rms. The blue trace shows rectified current (because moving coil meters contain a rectifier themselves and respond to the mean of the rectified current), and the scale is then calibrated to read 1.11 times the mean because the rms value of a sinusoid is 1.11 times the rectified mean. The math box shows a mean current of ~395mA, so multiplying this by 1.11 to get what your meter would be indicating, and then by the voltage, you now get 105W, a -14% error.

These errors aren't fixed, or generalisable, because they depend on the size of the smoothing capacitor. The larger the capacitor the closer the current spike gets to the peak voltage, the shorter the duration, and the higher the peak amplitude.

Thank you. V detailed.
Considering I'm an electrical/electronic engineer by degree I'm strangely more comfortable with the maths than the rest!
It's not a qualification I've ever used.

I'm left wondering how accurate power meters are. I know how traditional electricity meters work, but not cheap plug-in power meters.
 

jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
In home display Units

Maybe all those that say their In home Displays have never worked, on BBC1 RIP OFF Britain at 9:15am. They are going to show you how to fix your IHDU without the need for an engineer.

just an FYI
 

si_c

Guru
Location
Wirral
In home display Units

Maybe all those that say their In home Displays have never worked, on BBC1 RIP OFF Britain at 9:15am. They are going to show you how to fix your IHDU without the need for an engineer.

just an FYI

Don't have an IHDU, got a smart meter in the house which was installed when we bought it, previous ocupant fscked off with the display though. Rang EDF and they said it was gonna be £50. Not gonna save any money using the display so fscked that right off.
 
Don't have an IHDU, got a smart meter in the house which was installed when we bought it, previous ocupant fscked off with the display though. Rang EDF and they said it was gonna be £50. Not gonna save any money using the display so fscked that right off.

I find my display really useful to see what's using the electricity. I guess you'd need to be on the ball to save that £50 back though.
 

Alex321

Guru
Location
South Wales
I find my display really useful to see what's using the electricity. I guess you'd need to be on the ball to save that £50 back though.

The display for ours doesn't show any more than what the current usage is. And I can get that just as well from the SolarEdge app, on my phone, tablet or PC.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Be glad when MrsF is virus free as we've both WFH this week - me just in case I caught it (I haven't). Certainly heating has been on and electricity. Even needed the fan heater for 10 minutes to warm the conservatory. Roll on going back to work (PS commute costs for me are negligible being on the bike).:laugh:
 
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