Endurance training

[PaulSecteur]

Hi,

So... I have been reading that doing some long but low intensity rides is a good idea to build a solid base to build next years fitness on.

Although there ara diffences in duration and intesity most of what I have read seems to fall into 90 to 240 mins at 55 to 65% max heart rate (the highest I have seen mine is 187bpm whilst hauling myself up the cat and fiddle while trying to keep up with people at least 3 stone lighter).

So that means staying between 103 to 121 bpm. Genereally, on the flat with no wind this seems to be about 13mph -ish.

Questions...

1- I can do 2 hours at this pace quite easily. The physical side isnt too taxing, mainly the boredom and the saddle time thats the pain. Should I increase the pace, or duration?

2- I dont feel any real benifit (only been doing it 2 weeks though). Unlike hills where I feel I have worked.

3-Can I slip in a "quick mile" every mile in ten, or will that upset the base training?

 

[Rob3rt]

Slow base milage munching with no fast work is out of date thinking. TBH, unless you are training for something specific, where you need to time your peaks and are actually going to execute a full training cycle, you are just artificially slowing yourself down for nothing. My base rides are 45-60 miles long at an average speed of 18-19mph, this equates to about 85% HR when on the front of the group (slower rides to me on the whole are just an exercise in pootling about searching for coffee and having a natter). Some will say too fast, too hard, too early, others will say it is a good idea.

Basically, you don't want to be slaying yourself with tabata intervals at this time of year because some race season you will be physically and psychologically smashed, but what is the point of rolling around bored out of your skull at 13mph?

Edit: With regards feeling the benefit of long slow rides, you won't feel knackered at the end, that is part of the premise!

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Agree with Robert. Hear too much about "slow winter base miles" when it comes to training.
IMO a HR of 103-121, over 90-240 minutes, is a waste of good time on the bike. Better to mix it up on different riding days.

My HR at endurance level is around 100-120. If i am riding solo i spend less than 10% in this zone. The sweet spot for me would be closer to 130 to 140 bpm. Riding at this pace would likely have me (as Robert said) averaging between 18-20mph over 90-240 mins. Faster still would be riding at Threshold which would be a relaxed TT pace. This for me would be around 140-150bpm. Proper TT pace, which most of us can't do for too long, would have us around 90% plus effort. Training at this pace can improve your v02 max as well as your lactate threshold - the burning pain in your legs during serious effort. My HR for this is anything above 150. I rarely hit over 175, even when climbing. If my HR is there or above i am seriously pushing it.

Point being, if you only train in one area then you will be limiting your improvement. IMO if you spend a good part of your winter training in the 130-140 bpm area then that will represent your "base miles". Productive miles too.
Use maybe 20-30% of your training to properly mix it up with the tougher efforts. This way you won't over do it.

Important to not over do it though. When riding at your sweet spot or endurance you can easily ride the next day if you are not too sore. If you have done a ride with much tougher effort then make sure to rest accordingly. For me this usually means the brutal turbo trainer sessions, or TT specific outdoor rides, require a day of rest afterward. Or the end result is negative effect training which does very little good.

The questions you asked.

1. Yes
2. Add days where elevation is your target. Climbing can be tough though, you may need to rest the following day.
3. Sure. Waken those muscles up.

Crikey that's a long post.

 

[black'n'yellow]

Hi,

So... I have been reading that doing some long but low intensity rides is a good idea to build a solid base to build next years fitness on.

Although there ara diffences in duration and intesity most of what I have read seems to fall into 90 to 240 mins at 55 to 65% max heart rate (the highest I have seen mine is 187bpm whilst hauling myself up the cat and fiddle while trying to keep up with people at least 3 stone lighter).

So that means staying between 103 to 121 bpm. Genereally, on the flat with no wind this seems to be about 13mph -ish.

Questions...

1- I can do 2 hours at this pace quite easily. The physical side isnt too taxing, mainly the boredom and the saddle time thats the pain. Should I increase the pace, or duration?

2- I dont feel any real benifit (only been doing it 2 weeks though). Unlike hills where I feel I have worked.

3-Can I slip in a "quick mile" every mile in ten, or will that upset the base training?

'Slow' winter miles is a misconception. Base rides don't need to be 'slow', but 'steady' is good. 65% is recovery ride pace and too low for base, tbh - you would be better riding at 70-75% average HR as a target effort for base training. Aim for rides of 3hrs+ at that kind of intensity. Any rides shorter than that, you would be better increasing the effort slightly. The aim of base training is to prepare/condition your legs and CV system for the anticipated higher intensity training that you will(?) be doing later in the winter.

However, none of the above takes into account what your fitness goals might be - because you haven't said.

 

[PaulSecteur]

However, none of the above takes into account what your fitness goals might be - because you haven't said.

Thanks for the replies, and sorry for my ommision.

My goal is to "become better at distance (sportive) rides". I know thats fairly general in terms of specifics.

Generally, the flats dont present too much of a problem. When I did the polocini "Let them eat cake" ride there was a 5 mile stretch that I averaged just over 20mph.
Where I really struggle is witht the gradients. Being 15 stone dont help!

So, now I have to be more specific I guess my goal would be "How best to loose fat to help me become better at sportives".

Barr Beacon isnt too far from me...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=52.576832,-1.913123&spn=0.010223,0.024784&t=h&z=16

So would doing repeats up the b4151 be a better use of time then 2 hours getting dizzy going round the Birmingham Buisness Park?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=52.468011,-1.718073&spn=0.005124,0.012392&t=h&z=17

Thanks, Paul.

PS - "Cut down on food intake" advice will read, but ignored untill the 27th!

 

[Sittingduck]

Control dietary intake *feel free to ignore until 27th

Another vote for the 'slow miles are a bit of a waste of time' school of thought. Obviously, everybody is different but my own preference is 50 - 80 milers, at a reasonable / steady pace (16 - 18 mph). Throw in some hills and mix it up a bit. Do a cpl of shorter slower rides every now and then but I don't see the point in riding 2 hours at 13mph, just because it's Winter.

 

[PaulSecteur]

Control dietary intake

Almost choked on a mince pie then!

 

[Sittingduck]

I've been on the Roses and mince pies so far this afternoon. The hard work begins on the 28th!

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

I just know tomorrow will bring infinite calories and just overall badness.

"A moment on the lips" they say!! I don't care!! I eat healthy all year, i am damn sure going to eat my body weight in roast potatoes and trifle!!!!

Paul S - Yeh, vary your routes. Best way to learn hill climbing is to go and have a crack at them as often as poss. Try cycle as much as your schedule will allow. You can't do much more than that. From the 27th onwards of course......

 

[black'n'yellow]

Where I really struggle is witht the gradients. Being 15 stone dont help!

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/hill-reps.120108/ - worth a read, providing you ignore Drago's nonsense. In summary though, it's just a case of being fitter.

 

[Monsieur Remings]

I think as others have pointed out, it's good to have a specific aim and if that's longer distance sportives then you have to work out what sort of distance you can cope with now and work out whether that's enough for the sportive in mind. For some people finishing a sportive is an aim, for others it will be finishing the sportive in a set time - they're different things.

In regard to climbing it's just practice. The heavier you are though, the more you'll struggle and that's a fact. I climbed better in the summer than I would now because I was probably half-a-stone lighter or so. Find some hills locally and try some repeats; sit in the saddle and grind away and try not to waste energy getting out of the saddle unless you need to to keep the momentum. I found that for a long time I dreaded the climbing but it was a frame of mind thing - if it's possible, try and relax, get into a steady rhythm, experiment with different gears and what feels right, keep hydrated and concentrate on breathing. Try, if possible, to emulate the kind of terrain you're likely to encounter on the sportive and do as many different gradients as you can.

Best of luck.

 

[Garz]

So that means staying between 103 to 121 bpm. Genereally, on the flat with no wind this seems to be about 13mph -ish.
Questions...

1- I can do 2 hours at this pace quite easily. The physical side isnt too taxing, mainly the boredom and the saddle time thats the pain. Should I increase the pace, or duration?

2- I dont feel any real benifit (only been doing it 2 weeks though). Unlike hills where I feel I have worked.

3-Can I slip in a "quick mile" every mile in ten, or will that upset the base training?

1. Whichever suits on the day. Time available differs, your body may be tired - so let these dictate.
2. I am not quite sure what you are telling readers.. if it's not working after 2 weeks give it a chance, if after 8 weeks no gains then change plan.
3. This is interval training and some swear by it. I have done the Slow winter miles and they have worked although I'm more of a 15mph solo which by HR would probably mean I was pushing a bit harder than 55-65%

 

[Garz]

Slow base milage munching with no fast work is out of date thinking. TBH, unless you are training for something specific, where you need to time your peaks and are actually going to execute a full training cycle, you are just artificially slowing yourself down for nothing. My base rides are 45-60 miles long at an average speed of 18-19mph, this equates to about 85% HR when on the front of the group (slower rides to me on the whole are just an exercise in pootling about searching for coffee and having a natter). Some will say too fast, too hard, too early, others will say it is a good idea.

I personally dont think its poor training, like the nutrition products you can buy - it's overrated. Head over to Obree's site or read his book.

My main concerns for this advise Robert are:

• You mention 'on the front of the group' - so your in a club, this may not apply to solo riders then, and your benefits from this give a skewed figure. Take a mph or two off if your not working in a group.
• Like myself, Paul may not be as fit as you are so 50 miles or thereabouts pumping out 18mph is going to be a challenge especially if this is not on the flats.

 

[T.M.H.N.E.T]

I personally dont think its poor training, like the nutrition products you can buy - it's overrated. Head over to Obree's site or read his book.

My main concerns for this advise Robert are:

• You mention 'on the front of the group' - so your in a club, this may not apply to solo riders then, and your benefits from this give a skewed figure. Take a mph or two off if your not working in a group.
• Like myself, Paul may not be as fit as you are so 50 miles or thereabouts pumping out 18mph is going to be a challenge especially if this is not on the flats.

Obrees book really isn't a training manual. Deep down all you get is the ramblings and illthought ideas of an OCD depressive man. To take anything more than satire from "I did this and I don't really know if it worked, but I think it might have" is... stupid

 

[Garz]

Obrees book really isn't a training manual.

The Obree Way - a training manual for cyclists

Oh - hang on a minute, your being serious...