Electric Bikes - Battery Life.

[simongt]

As we all know, a rechargeable battery has a definite lifespan depending on how often it's recharged and the frequency of use.
Now if I buy a human powered pedal bike, I would expect, all things being equal, for it to have a 'life' of up to fifteen years or more allowing for replacing tyres, brake blocks, drivetrain components etc..
However, if I bought an electric bike, what would be the chances of there being a suitable battery pack for replacement after say, four or five years, or even two or three - ?
And electric bikes aren't exactly cheap.
Just a thought.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

As we all know, a rechargeable battery has a definite lifespan depending on how often it's recharged and the frequency of use.
Now if I buy a human powered pedal bike, I would expect, all things being equal, for it to have a 'life' of up to fifteen years or more allowing for replacing tyres, brake blocks, drivetrain components etc..
However, if I bought an electric bike, what would be the chances of there being a suitable battery pack for replacement after say, four or five years, or even two or three - ?
And electric bikes aren't exactly cheap.
Just a thought.

I bought one many year ago - it was used

several years later the battery was getting abit tired and I got a new one
some years later I got the original one recelled - some years later I sold it with both still working fine

When I sold it I bought a folder from Halfords - due to me not paying attention the battery if no longer working
I have looked online and I can easily get a new one - for over £200 - for it - even though it is for a folder and internal - hence a weird shape

I also have another one - my main bike - which uses a Bosch system and I can easily get a new one for that even though it is over 5 years old
although it costs a damn site mor ethat the Bafang one for the folder but that is Bosch for you
but then it is 5 yeras old and has just gone over 10,000 miles and still have nearly the same range as when it was new!!!!


so - in summary - yes you can get a replacement when they are years old
but it probably depends on the make

and if you can;t get one - it is possible to have the cells inside replaced professionally

personally I would get a good and well know make as this makes it more likely that you will be able to get a new battery later on
but that is a good idea anyway as a cheap system is a BAD idea with an ebike

 

[wiggydiggy]

As we all know, a rechargeable battery has a definite lifespan depending on how often it's recharged and the frequency of use.
Now if I buy a human powered pedal bike, I would expect, all things being equal, for it to have a 'life' of up to fifteen years or more allowing for replacing tyres, brake blocks, drivetrain components etc..
However, if I bought an electric bike, what would be the chances of there being a suitable battery pack for replacement after say, four or five years, or even two or three - ?
And electric bikes aren't exactly cheap.
Just a thought.

Chances are certain for my 2021 bike, it has batteries available today to buy. So thats 4 years coverered with no sign of the original needing replacement.

Its a Bosch system BTW.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

I have a bike with a Mahle X35, the thing created by eBikeMotion.

Mahle are massive in the car parts business and know how to support products for a number of years, so that is the upside.

The downside is that the batteries alone can not be replaced, you have to replace the battery unit, £200 of Panasonic 18650 cells at high internet prices, sold in a unit for around £750 and needing authorisation software to activate. This software and data cable are not generally available to the public so the dealers don't need to discount as the customer can't go anywhere else.

Something that may be surprising is that many ebike shops will only support ebikes they sold, so even if someone local could do the job they might not be willing to do so.

Another consideration is that the replacement could involve a new Bottom Bracket, this is quite likely on a CF frame where internal batteries are added into the downtube early in the build process, so repacing the battery means removing the chainset and BB.

The final thing to worry about is as the battery starts to lose capacity is that you hit the last n% of that capacity is of limited use much more quickly. Think of an old torch with a light bulb that does glow but gives out no useful light, The X35 has a light system to indicate charge level and at around 40Wh of remain capacity it goes flashing read and limits the battery discharge to a very low level, which is pretty much no assit.

However I don't need to worry about availabilty as I am already down to 80% capacity after only 1 year! :-(

Finally I use mine as a commute bike and everything we are told about lithium ion chemistry and the cold wethear is true, so if you are anywhere near using up the full battery capcacity in the warm, expect to run out in the cold.

Bye

Ian

 

[wiggydiggy]

Something that may be surprising is that many ebike shops will only support ebikes they sold, so even if someone local could do the job they might not be willing to do so.

I have to say when I've read your updates, that was something that surprised me, though I have heard tales before of LBSs being unwilling to service bikes they didn't sell so it wasn't unheard of.

Though my LBS does fall into the "we can't" rather than "we won't" as they don't sell Bosch equipped bikes. I only found that out relatively recently, plus as a compromise they will do any none electric work I need.

But any of the Bosch approved dealers near me have been happy to help so I suppose that is the answer to me, that I'd look for a service network for any eBike I'm thinking of getting before buying it.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I can see the point about some shops only supporting ebikes that they sell

If they do something to a bike that has a Bosch system like mine - and "something weird" happens and the ebike systems stops working for some reason

then they are basically screwed
SOme of these systems are so "integrated" that the slightest interruption requires that you connect it to the official software to tell itthat it is OK to run again
e.g. the magnet detector on mine - that detects the wheel revs and hence the speed - if linked into the system
now - I know that you can get a very simple magenetic detector which just sends a pulse when the magnet goes past - and costs a few pence
But not for Bosch
When it started to fall apart I took it to the LBS and he looked at it and commented that I was lucky
he could tape it back together so it wouldn;t get much worse and still work
then order a new one and put it on
BUT I had to wait until it came it and NOT to fiddle with it becuase if the "system" realised that the detector had stopped working then it would register the fact and stop the whole thing working
In the end he was lucky and when he swapped them he knew to free up everythign needed before takeing the wire off the old one and putting it on the new one
He did it fast enough that the system didn;t register
if he has been a bit slower he would have had to connect the bike up to the laptops and run the Bosch software and re-register the detector

and only a Bosch dealer could do that

so if I had taken it to a different LBS and they were not a Bosch dealer then they could have got the detector from the WWW justf fine
but a slight delay in replacing it and the ebike would stop working
They would then have to get a Bosch ebike dealer to help them out - which would cost them



basically it is market protectionism but they will say it is to prevent people fiddling to get around the speed cutoff regulations - but we know the real reason!

 

[Andy in Germany]

Something that may be surprising is that many ebike shops will only support ebikes they sold, so even if someone local could do the job they might not be willing to do so.

We only support Bosch and Shimano motors, although we'll check and repair other components of bikes with different motors. The reason for this is that we have the software and the licence for these companies. If we try and fix a bike from another company we will be liable with no backup if it goes wrong, and with a motor capable of 25km/h and batteries that could explode, we don't want that liability.

 

[wiggydiggy]

We only support Bosch and Shimano motors, although we'll check and repair other components of bikes with different motors. The reason for this is that we have the software and the licence for these companies. If we try and fix a bike from another company we will be liable with no backup if it goes wrong, and with a motor capable of 25km/h and batteries that could explode, we don't want that liability.

My LBS is a Shimano/Specialized shop so no Bosch. My NLBS (Nearly Local Bike Shop😉) does Bosch/Bafang, but no Shimano/Specialized.

I'd imagine the licensing for the software is quite a lot, so I wouldn't expect LBSs to be able to do them all.

I did do some high sea sailing to try and get Bosch software, but decided in the end I'd stick with authorised dealers 👍

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Good morning,

There is shop near me that sells only ebikes including Orbea, which can be Mahle based, so they do have all that is needed, so in this case it is purely a policy issue.

Again I can understand that, I did look at buying a bike from them but it would have been a D30 which was Claris rather than Tiagra, generic wheels rather than Mavic Kysrium and rim brakes rather than hydraulic disks and £700 more expensive.

So a no service for bikes bought elsewhere policy may be part of the explaining why you are getting so little bike for your money! £2,700 for aluminium frame, Claris and generic wheels

What seems so unreasonable is this

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/caring-for-your-electric-bike-a-ribble-cycles-guide/
All of our e-bike models are equipped with the X35+ system, which features at its core a Panasonic 36V / 250Wh, 18650GA - 10S / 2P Lithium-Ion battery. The battery functions as the brains of the operation and can reach up to 500 charging cycles whilst retaining up to 90% of its total capacity. If it is appropriately maintained, that is.

Just search for Panasonic 18650GA and multiply the price by 20, £200 absolutely top wack, I would even understand if they were not user replacable and an extra £75 was added for labour.

It also indicates how "corporate" Ribble have become, they have been selling X20 equiped bikes for a while now, someone must have noticed.

It seems that ebikes are/were a highly profitable sector of the market and hype took precedence over value, possibly also with the expectation that the sort of person who would but one wouldn't ride it much once the novelty wore off
I was talking to someone who has had a Ribble for nearly 4 years and his battery seems to be in a similar state to mine, I was confused until he said that he does around 5 miles a day on his.

I am really not sure if it is worth replacing the battery if they are only going to last a year, with the last 40Wh (ish) bein pretty much useless I am looking at a tad under a 150Wh battery at the moment! Added to which I have already replaced the freehub but I don't know if that is an indication of poor quality or just bad luck and I am starting to have reservations on motor life as all the other parts of the system seem so fragile.

As shown below the motor engages with the freehub assembly with hard "plastic" cogs, now they may last forever or be close to worn out, I am not sure.

Bye

Ian

 

[Emanresu]

Best place to start is to look at the legislation - EU in this case as it will have a knock on effect to supplies within Europe and not just the EU

https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/consumer-protection-law/directive-repair-goods_en

So there have to be spares for a certain length of time for certain products. Software limiting the use of spares is illegal. Parts lists have to be shown and suppliers have to confirm which parts are available and which not. That's the theory anyway. Practice is usually a bit less especially if the manufacturer is no longer in existence or isn't interested in EU sales. Bosch should be OK though.

 

[biggs682]

Best place to start is to look at the legislation - EU in this case as it will have a knock on effect to supplies within Europe and not just the EU

https://commission.europa.eu/law/law-topic/consumer-protection-law/directive-repair-goods_en

So there have to be spares for a certain length of time for certain products. Software limiting the use of spares is illegal. Parts lists have to be shown and suppliers have to confirm which parts are available and which not. That's the theory anyway. Practice is usually a bit less especially if the manufacturer is no longer in existence or isn't interested in EU sales. Bosch should be OK though.

I was told by someone in the know that Bosch have just called time on a range of diesel injector spares that have been readily available for 30 years and it's causing a right issue in the old diesel tuning shops

 

[Andy in Germany]

Good morning,

There is shop near me that sells only ebikes including Orbea, which can be Mahle based, so they do have all that is needed, so in this case it is purely a policy issue.

Again I can understand that, I did look at buying a bike from them but it would have been a D30 which was Claris rather than Tiagra, generic wheels rather than Mavic Kysrium and rim brakes rather than hydraulic disks and £700 more expensive.

So a no service for bikes bought elsewhere policy may be part of the explaining why you are getting so little bike for your money! £2,700 for aluminium frame, Claris and generic wheels

What seems so unreasonable is this

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/blog/caring-for-your-electric-bike-a-ribble-cycles-guide/
All of our e-bike models are equipped with the X35+ system, which features at its core a Panasonic 36V / 250Wh, 18650GA - 10S / 2P Lithium-Ion battery. The battery functions as the brains of the operation and can reach up to 500 charging cycles whilst retaining up to 90% of its total capacity. If it is appropriately maintained, that is.

Just search for Panasonic 18650GA and multiply the price by 20, £200 absolutely top wack, I would even understand if they were not user replacable and an extra £75 was added for labour.

It also indicates how "corporate" Ribble have become, they have been selling X20 equiped bikes for a while now, someone must have noticed.

It seems that ebikes are/were a highly profitable sector of the market and hype took precedence over value, possibly also with the expectation that the sort of person who would but one wouldn't ride it much once the novelty wore off
I was talking to someone who has had a Ribble for nearly 4 years and his battery seems to be in a similar state to mine, I was confused until he said that he does around 5 miles a day on his.

I am really not sure if it is worth replacing the battery if they are only going to last a year, with the last 40Wh (ish) bein pretty much useless I am looking at a tad under a 150Wh battery at the moment! Added to which I have already replaced the freehub but I don't know if that is an indication of poor quality or just bad luck and I am starting to have reservations on motor life as all the other parts of the system seem so fragile.

As shown below the motor engages with the freehub assembly with hard "plastic" cogs, now they may last forever or be close to worn out, I am not sure.

Bye

Ian

View attachment 765396

View attachment 765394

I think a fair bit is the hype surrounding the bikes. People certainly seem to use them as a sort of "motorbike with pedals" using the highest gear and apparently increasing the power for hills, and then wonder why the battery is used up quickly and the chain slips.

My feeling is that as the reality hits regarding costs of maintenance and repairs, the hype will die down a bit. We charge 54€ for a general inspection, plus about 20€ for a software update, plus another 20€ for a "software diagnosis", so if you come in with a problem, more than a year after the last checkup, it's nearly 100€ before you start on repairs and parts.

Batteries are frighteningly expensive, especially for replacements. I think some of this is the big companies realising they have a captive audience, but transport and storage dangerous and therefore expensive. We can only send batteries for repair with licensed dangerous goods carriers, and of course this isn't cheap, nor should it be: Last time the transport alone was 70€, and that was just to the Bosch depot and headquarters a few kilometres away.

We are also supposed to use (expensive) fireproof bins for all batteries on site overnight, and especially any suspected of being damaged. Disposal is of course also an issue, and on it goes...

 

[Andy in Germany]

My LBS is a Shimano/Specialized shop so no Bosch. My NLBS (Nearly Local Bike Shop😉) does Bosch/Bafang, but no Shimano/Specialized.

I'd imagine the licensing for the software is quite a lot, so I wouldn't expect LBSs to be able to do them all.

I did do some high sea sailing to try and get Bosch software, but decided in the end I'd stick with authorised dealers 👍

It's not just software: my colleagues have been on training courses for Bosch and I think Shimano, which are expensive and of course mean they aren't able to work in the workshop for a day. We need this to be licensed and therefore covered for liability insurance.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Again I can understand that, I did look at buying a bike from them but it would have been a D30 which was Claris rather than Tiagra, generic wheels rather than Mavic Kysrium and rim brakes rather than hydraulic disks and £700 more expensive.

We get very expensive "concept" Ebikes with generic wheels, brakes, and Tourney gears, egads. And usually an owner saying "I only had it fixed last year, why won't it work?" and we have to explain the sad truth.

 

[wiggydiggy]

It's not just software: my colleagues have been on training courses for Bosch and I think Shimano, which are expensive and of course mean they aren't able to work in the workshop for a day. We need this to be licensed and therefore covered for liability insurance.

Seems fair. I've never pressured my LBS to try and do something, just always worked around what they can and cannot do.