DRLs on cars - apparently it's all our fault!

[snorri]

If all cars light up when running its a huge help to peds and cyclists.

I fail to understand this, can you explain your reasoning here please?.

 

[Davidc]

I fail to understand this, can you explain your reasoning here please?.

Yes.

In a sentence, the cars stand out much much better than without lights.

When cars have daylight lights on (as in Sweden and Poland where I've experienced it) they simply stand out better against the background, and people react faster to them. Where you see pedestrians fail to spot vehicles and step out here it doesn't happen as much when there's lighting on.

It doesn't have as much effect on bright sunny summer days as on dull dim ones, like many here over the past 6 weeks. Even on sunny days you see the advantages in shady streets in cities.

When driving outside cities there's a distinct improvement in visibility, and on a bike it's just as valuable as in a car.

I can see no disadvantages at all to DRL, and many big advantages, provided as I said above that the rule allows low energy LED running lights to be used.

I don't expect everyone else to agree, but I do expect most to acknowledge the benefits if and when DRL comes in.

 

[snorri]

Yes.

In a sentence, the cars stand out much much better than without lights.

OK

I've cycled in Poland and Sweden myself and can't say I was aware of any safety improvement. In fact I curtailed my Polish tour due to fears for my safety on the road!
I am just concerned that unlit objects will become even more obscure among the increased number of lit objects.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Davidc]

OK

I've cycled in Poland and Sweden myself and can't say I was aware of any safety improvement. In fact I curtailed my Polish tour due to fears for my safety on the road!
I am just concerned that unlit objects will become even more obscure among the increased number of lit objects.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree on this one.

Possibly. In Poland the driving's crazy, speeds are crazy* and the alcohol consumption is too high, and I don't think anything would make it safe in the short term.

Since my bike is a lit object, day and night, it's unlikely to be obscured. I do think bike DRLs are/ would be even more desirable than now in an environment where they are present on everything else.

I think you're right - we'll just disagree.

*when traffic's moving at all!

 

[frank9755]

I'm delighted if DRL comes in, and look forward to it and the improvement in road safety for all it will bring.

If DRL for cyclists came in not only would drivers see us better, it would take away all excuse for failure to see us, as I said, if there ever was one.

Of course exactly the same points apply to pedestrians. Do you think they should also carry lights during the daytime?

 

[MartinC]

This is similar the same to the Hi Viz argument The correct approach (for me) is - I should use DRL but nobody else should be allowed to, then I will be safer (if everyone does it then I won't be safer).

Interesting that we'll legislate to put lights on vehicles but not to get them painted in bright colours.

 

[Davidc]

Pedestrians are encouraged to wear bright colours. They don't, and I don't think compulsion can or should happen.

Interesting that we'll legislate to put lights on vehicles but not to get them painted in bright colours.

I can't understand why not (apart from the response of the makers, the Clarksonites and the DM)

Trains have to have bright yellow front and rear, why not road going powered vehicles.

Stripes of flourescent yellow, red and black, the black being retroreflective.

(I have to admit that my car is a faintly blue metalic silvery colour, which I know blends into the background very efficiently, especially around dusk and during dull days).

 

[psmiffy]

Stripes of flourescent yellow, red and black, the black being retroreflective.

Definetly not - there are enough idiots crashing through line of cones into safe working area already without making the rest think that the closed off areas areas containing working vehicles are part of the traffic stream

OK

I've cycled in Poland and Sweden myself and can't say I was aware of any safety improvement. In fact I curtailed my Polish tour due to fears for my safety on the road!

Agree - I have cycled in lots of places where daylight running lights are compulsary - makes it easier to to see cars approaching in the distance on the long straight roads that are commonplace in many parts of Europe - however as a cyclist I see no advantages or disadvantages to the use of daylight running lights

 

[Nigel-YZ1]

At the moment I've no enthusiasm for DRLs.

All I've seen of this is the LED's on Audis and the 9 billion watt strip of search-light grade LED's on some new Citroens.

My own opinion is that the plethora of these things - which obviously are being placed for fashion statement (Citroen - in a semi-vertical arc) rather than conforming to sense (Audi - strip beneath headlights) are just going to provide distraction from the things I want to see.

 

[Mad at urage]

DRLs are part of a process of lighting escalation that cyclists and pedestrians will always lose. Our eyes are naturally attracted to bright objects and we will always see the brightly-lit object in preference to the less brightly lit. It becomes a competition which cyclists and pedestrians will lose because a motor vehicle has the power to carry around bigger generators and will eventually outshine the motor-less anyway, leaving all the cyclists and pedestrians unseen in the shadows around their bright lights.

I now cycle with a bright helmet light (Hope Vision 1 Adventure - this one http://www.bikeradar...-light-10-39875) and an Electron Terra 2 Front Light on the bike (can be set to alternate flashing in traffic). I wear a flashing red rear on the helmet and two separate red rears on the bike (flashing during the day and one constant at night).

I shouldn't need that amount of lighting!

Nowadays this combination (with a 'night vision' jacket and several reflective bands) is fairly normal. Fifteen years ago it would have been seen as excessive (I rode with about the same bike lights and a head-mounted front light - because 5 miles of my commute was off-road, and just a couple of ankle-bands).

I am aware of contributing to the problem. When I turn out in the morning with a helmet and two lights on my head, as well as several flashing on the bike, the local schoolkids see it* as both remarkably funny (at least they are not yet indoctrinated with the idea that everyone should dress like that) and - more unfortunately, as how cyclists dress (because cycling's dangerous and 'cos cyclists are ridiculous ). This feeds their expectations later in life and discourages them from choosing cycling as a means of transport.

When I started cycling, the idea of "What do you expect us to wear? Bloody flashing lights like a Christmas tree?" was a joke response (and seen as such); nowadays the answer at least in the UK appears to be "Yes, of course" (but not for example in cycle-friendly countries such as Netherlands!).

Nowadays my ridiculous Christmas Tree of lights is used nightly and in poor visibility during the day (heaven forbid that motor vehicles should slow down to spot an unlit and slow-moving road user in poor visibility ). DRLs will mean that cars are more noticeable than I am during the day (see second sentence of this post) which means that drivers (and pedestrians and probably cyclists ) will be less liable to notice me than without DRLs. Cyclists will have to use (increasing powers of) cycle lights during the day, further increasing the cost of cycling# and decreasing its advantage over motor transport.

DRLs are therefore bad because they increase a car's advantage over cycles and pedestrians in the "see me! my presence is important!!" competition that is our road system and also because they will (as a knock-on effect) increase the cost of cycling and so discourage people from taking it up.




*'Look at the Funny Cyclist'
# I have probably £300 worth of lights on my bike, which is not a lot compared to what could be spent but far more than most people who may consider cycling would want to spend.

 

[McrJ64]

"Arriva introduced a standing instruction in 2004 to their drivers that buses must have dipped headlamps switched on at all times. Accident rate for their buses dropped significantly following that."

Really - So without dipped lights, a 60 (single decker) or 100 (double decker) bus is invisible!! We don't stand a chance.

 

[domd1979]

"Arriva introduced a standing instruction in 2004 to their drivers that buses must have dipped headlamps switched on at all times. Accident rate for their buses dropped significantly following that."

Really - So without dipped lights, a 60 (single decker) or 100 (double decker) bus is invisible!! We don't stand a chance.

It would seem so, since the drop in pedestrian/bus accidents was something like half!!

 

[domd1979]

Trains have to have bright yellow front and rear, why not road going powered vehicles.

And on the main line headlamp at all times...

 

[fimm]

<snip> lots of other good stuff
DRLs are therefore bad because they increase a car's advantage over cycles and pedestrians in the "see me! my presence is important!!" competition that is our road system and also because they will (as a knock-on effect) increase the cost of cycling and so discourage people from taking it up.

This. All of it, not just the bit I've quoted.

 

[Davidc]

DRLs are part of a process of lighting escalation that cyclists and pedestrians will always lose. Our eyes are naturally attracted to bright objects and we will always see the brightly-li .....

This, all of it, is too long to bother replying to, especially as IMO it is 99.9999999999999% wrong.

DRLs will be a positive contribution to everyone's safety and will not disadvantage cyclists or anyone else.

Cycling is safer now than at any time sine the 1940s, and statistically is 4 times safer than when I started in the 1960s, so no you don't need all your lights or high visibility stuff, but it does help others to see you early. So does mine.