Driver view of Jason MacIntyre's fatal accident.

[MartinC]

I agree with User. This seems to be exactly what the law (Death by Careless Driving) was put in place for.

 

[domtyler]

I agree - it wasn't death by dangerous driving. However, it should have been death by careless driving. Charging him with careless driving alone is simply taking the piss.

Is this your view as a dispassionate lawyer or as a hot under the collar cyclist?


I would assume that death by careless driving would be for situations where there was ample evidence of sustained bad driving rather than a split second decision that ended in tragedy, which could, let's be clear about this, happen to any of us at any time, even on a bike. Would you want to get banged up on a lengthy sentence if you, say, decided to go left instead of right in the blink of an eye and ended up colliding with a pedestrian on your way home tonight?

 

[HLaB]

He claimed the cyclist was not wearing high-visibility clothing and was in a "hunkered down" position, making his body size very small.

I've never heard the latter excuse used and how would he have known unless he saw him?

 

[domtyler]

The law says that it is when "A person who causes the death of another person by driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place"

There is no need for evidence of sustained bad driving - what is required to be shown is that the person was driving without due care and attention and, in so doing, caused a death.

And that is right - if you're driving a 2 tonne plus lump of metal around, you should be paying attention to what you are doing.


However, I note that the relevant offence has yet to be commenced, almost 2 years after the Road Safety Act 2006 was given Royal assent. I suspect that the Government are dragging their feet due to pressure from motorists groups, who are opposing the introduction of this offence.

BTW I am not a lawyer, dispassionate or otherwise...

And the other question? Would you like to be banged up for causing someone to die by crashing into them while cycling through a momentary lapse or freak misjudgement of a situation?

 

[MartinC]

And the other question? Would you like to be banged up for causing someone to die by crashing into them while cycling through a momentary lapse or freak misjudgement of a situation?

I don't think anybody would. If the responsibility's to onerous you can always not drive. It's the law created by the democratic process. You can always campaign to get it changed.

 

[wafflycat]

And the other question? Would you like to be banged up for causing someone to die by crashing into them while cycling through a momentary lapse or freak misjudgement of a situation?

I suspect that if someone caused another to die through a 'momentary lapse or freak misjudgement of a situation' where the implement that was used was say a gun or a knife, then the person in charge of said gun or knife would be finding themselves spending some time detained for Her Maj's pleasure.

 

[domtyler]

I am all for coming down heavily on those that habitually drive dangerously and anti-socially on the roads. OTOH mistakes do happen and people can get hurt and killed. I wouldn't wish for anyone to go to prison for a momentary lapse of judgement and there is no reason to thing that there was anything other than this in this case.

I cycle twice a day on busy London roads, I do this willingly and I know that I am vulnerable and likely to come off far worse if I am in a collision with a motor vehicle, I do what I can to prevent that collision from happening. I am sure that the deceased would have said something similar.

 

[domtyler]

I suspect that if someone caused another to die through a 'momentary lapse or freak misjudgement of a situation' where the implement that was used was say a gun or a knife, then the person in charge of said gun or knife would be finding themselves spending some time detained for Her Maj's pleasure.

Don't be ridiculous, a motor vehicle is a means of transportation, quite different to brandishing a knife or gun. A vehicle can be used as a weapon but there is no evidence to suggest that this happened in this case.

 

[wafflycat]

So Dom, which medium have you been visiting to get the direct line to the deceaed then?

 

[domtyler]

So Dom, which medium have you been visiting to get the direct line to the deceaed then?

Here you have inadvertently reinforced my point. We can only go by the available evidence and there is none that points to anything other than a lapse of judgement. Certainly not that I know about, let me know if you know different.

Ultimately sending this guy to jail will not do anyone any good, it certainly won't prevent people from making mistakes in future, it won't reform this person and it won't bring back the dead man. There is much to be said for giving people the benefit of the doubt.

 

[habibi]

I don't think there would be much point locking the guy up, but a lifetime driving ban should be the minimum sentence. However let's face it - he could do the same lethal SMIDSY again next year, and he still wouldn't get a lifetime ban. This country is a joke.

 

[wafflycat]

Don't be ridiculous, a motor vehicle is a means of transportation, quite different to brandishing a knife or gun. A vehicle can be used as a weapon but there is no evidence to suggest that this happened in this case.

A knife is an implement used for assisting one to eat. A gun is an implement assisting one to get food. Now, all of a sudden instead of a motor vehicle 'momentary lapse or freak misjudgement of a situation' change it to another implement and it becomes 'brandishing' Woosh... the speed of those goalposts being moved by Dom is amazing!

 

[wafflycat]

I think there could well be a good come out of jail time in some cases: "pour encourager les autres"

 

[domtyler]

I think there could well be a good come out of jail time in some cases: "pour encourager les autres"

Your old man does a fair few miles on the roads in his Merc doesn't he? Likewise, my wife drives every day of the week in her Corsa (unlike myself who rarely drives). So by the law of averages you and I are far more likely to lose our other halves if they were unlucky enough to be involved in an unfortunate incident like this one and subsequently jailed for their momentary lapse of concentration. I trust you would still retain your ultra hard line faced with a couple of years on your lonesome?

 

[wafflycat]

Oh yes. If you've done something and it's your fault, you take the punishment. It isn't always the fault of the driver, but when it is, punishment should be made. I include me in that, by the way. IMO the current law on drivers being at fault when causing death is far, far too lenient.