Don't prosecute older drivers who run red lights

[swansonj]

Seems to me some folk here are starting with the wrong set of underlying assumptions: an assumption of a right to able to drive at your chosen speed. Whereas roads are a shared public space and there are a gazillion reasons why a vehicle may be slower than your chosen speed. They may irritate you (though that would raise questions about the psychology of your driving) but there is no right of yours that is being infringed by a slower driver and no moral pressure on them to change their behaviour.

 

[oldwheels]

A crystal ball would also be helpful when driving in unfamiliar areas. My pet hate (ok, ok; another one) is the use of direction arrows painted on the road at roundabouts or traffic light junctions. No other signs giving guidance as to which lane leads where, until you are on top of them as they were covered by other traffic. By which time it's too late and no-one is going to let you change lanes. This is particularly entertaining when driving an artic, as I found out on a regular basis .

In Paisley they carefully hide all direction signs to the hospital behind bushes, trees or other signs.

 

[Time Waster]

Fine them for the offence because they committed it then assess them quickly. There is no such thing as accidentally committing motoring offence because you are in control of the car making the decisions necessary to drive. It's always operator error except for rare circumstances.

Take hitting black ice and skidding to illuminate this. Most modern vehicles give you air temps and warn you of I've risk. You're 17 years or older which is old enough to judge its a cold night with risk of ice. Then you chose to drive. Were you driving to account for potential ice? How are your tyres? Did you check them? And so on. Decisions you made as a driver prior to having n the "accident" of a skid. Might be unfortunate but a consequence of many decisions.

People who drive should always own their driving deci and accept any consequences.

 

[swansonj]

Surely that headline is entirely accurate and Drago did not miss the real story?

Prosecution/fine/points and driving assessment/withdrawal of licence are two different things. The former is dealing with a criminal offence. The latter is dealing with a licence to do a certain thing that is granted by the state and can be withdrawn by the state. We surely ought to do the latter (assess then withdraw the licence) much more often, for any age, when driving behaviour suggests it. But if we stop doing the former (criminal sanctions for criminal offences) we are sending a message that motoring law isn't really proper law.

It's not either/or, it should be both!

 

[oldwheels]

Seems to me some folk here are starting with the wrong set of underlying assumptions: an assumption of a right to able to drive at your chosen speed. Whereas roads are a shared public space and there are a gazillion reasons why a vehicle may be slower than your chosen speed. They may irritate you (though that would raise questions about the psychology of your driving) but there is no right of yours that is being infringed by a slower driver and no moral pressure on them to change their behaviour.

So 30mph on a 60mph limit main road and not pulling over for traffic behind is ok? I have seen various accidents reported over time where that was the main cause.
I have a timetable deadline to meet and should be able to maintain a reasonable speed on a main road.

 

[Dogtrousers]

The only stretch of road that I know of that has a minimum speed limit is A12 near the Southbound entrance into the Blackwall Tunnel which has a 10mph minimum sign - for no reason that I can fathom. (It's quasi-motorway so bikes, horses, lawnmowers etc aren't allowed)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...4!1s8YbolSsh5NOTjDWwDcaAsg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Amusingly, this is often jammed, so often as not the traffic inches slowly through that zone at well under 10mph.

 

[swansonj]

So 30mph on a 60mph limit main road and not pulling over for traffic behind is ok? I have seen various accidents reported over time where that was the main cause.
I have a timetable deadline to meet and should be able to maintain a reasonable speed on a main road.

No. The mindset that "I am a motorist and roads are provided to me so that I can proceed along them at my chosen speed" is just wrong, and cyclists of all people should be aware of that.

And, as others have pointed out, the cause of those accidents was not the slow driver, it was the faulty psychology of the following driver.

 

[Brandane]

They may irritate you (though that would raise questions about the psychology of your driving) but there is no right of yours that is being infringed by a slower driver and no moral pressure on them to change their behaviour.

No-one has any "right" to do anything on the road. It is all subject to the law, mostly under the Road Traffic Act. Which states that it is against the law to drive without reasonable consideration for other road users. Interpret that however you like, but it is generally accepted in the courts that anyone driving in a manner which falls short of the level of competence required to pass the DVSA driving test, can be held to be driving without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other road users.
If you go out and sit your driving test, and drive at 30 mph on a road with a 60 mph limit, and where it is clear and safe to drive near to that limit, you will fail your test! @gavroche ??

 

[Brandane]

In Paisley they carefully hide all direction signs to the hospital behind bushes, trees or other signs.

Same everywhere. But it used to be the case that the roads dept. of the council actually employed teams of people to cut back trees and bushes and keep signs visible. That luxury is gone and won't be coming back, sadly.

 

[Brandane]

No. The mindset that "I am a motorist and roads are provided to me so that I can proceed along them at my chosen speed" is just wrong, and cyclists of all people should be aware of that.

I don't see anyone saying that. Obviously it is a requirement to drive in a manner suited to the traffic conditions. In a wide open "A" road, with a 60 mph limit, in good weather, clear visibility, no traffic in front, no obstructions, straight road ahead etc., why can a competent driver not manage to drive at something close to the limit?
I see it time and again near here, that in such conditions they sit at 30/35 mph with a long snake of cars behind them. Oblivious, or just don't care?? I would suggest that THEY are the ones who need to look at the psychology of their driving. If they feel they can't cope with driving properly, perhaps they need to consider giving it up? As has frequently been stated on this forum, driving is a privilege with conditions attached, it is not a right.

 

[Time Waster]

There's a certain issue with slow speeds though. Older people generally start to compensate for diminishing reaction times with slowing down. I'm not even 50 yo but recognise that with my driving.

If a vehicle is being driven significantly slower than others then holding someone up isn't the an issue but whether the significantly slow driver m is b safe to drive. I've seen cats drive at 30mph on the m6! It's amazing how quickly you catch up to a 30mph car when you're doing 65mph on the motorway.

The cases I've seen were older people who I think should be subjected to assessment. There's simply no credible system for that. GPs simply do not want to refer people, there's no independent system.

In my family a GP did not report his patient who he diagnosed as having a stroke and who told my relative he shouldn't drive any more. It was actually a tumour the size of a grapefruit but that's another issue.

 

[raleighnut]

There's also a proposal to allow 'older drivers' to keep their driving licence as long as they stay near 'home', useful if you live in a villlage where the shops have been forced to close by supermarkets.

 

[Dogtrousers]

I've seen cats drive at 30mph on the m6!

 

[Alex321]

Seems to me some folk here are starting with the wrong set of underlying assumptions: an assumption of a right to able to drive at your chosen speed. Whereas roads are a shared public space and there are a gazillion reasons why a vehicle may be slower than your chosen speed. They may irritate you (though that would raise questions about the psychology of your driving) but there is no right of yours that is being infringed by a slower driver and no moral pressure on them to change their behaviour.

I'm afraid this is just false.

The law requires that you drive with consideration for others. Part of which means you should not unnecessarily hold others up. If you want to drive slower than most of the traffic, then you should pull over at reasonable intervals to allow those you are holding up past.

Section 3, Road Traffic Act 1988
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/I/crossheading/driving-offences

Careless, and inconsiderate, driving.
If a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place, he is guilty of an offence.

3ZAMeaning of careless, or inconsiderate, driving
(1)This section has effect for the purposes of sections 2B and 3 above and section 3A below.

(2)A person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.

(3)In determining for the purposes of subsection (2) above what would be expected of a careful and competent driver in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused.

(4)A person is to be regarded as driving without reasonable consideration for other persons only if those persons are inconvenienced by his driving.

People have been prosecuted for driving too slowly for the prevailing traffic.

And driving too slowly is listed on the cPS site under the heading of careless or inconsiderate driving
https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/driving-offences

The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.

Some examples of careless or inconsiderate driving are:

• overtaking on the inside;
• driving too close to another vehicle;
• driving through a red light by mistake;
• turning into the path of another vehicle;
• the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
• flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
• misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
• unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
• unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
• dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights.

(My bold)

 

[oldwheels]

I'm afraid this is just false.

The law requires that you drive with consideration for others. Part of which means you should not unnecessarily hold others up. If you want to drive slower than most of the traffic, then you should pull over at reasonable intervals to allow those you are holding up past.

Section 3, Road Traffic Act 1988
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/I/crossheading/driving-offences


People have been prosecuted for driving too slowly for the prevailing traffic.

And driving too slowly is listed on the cPS site under the heading of careless or inconsiderate driving
https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/driving-offences

(My bold)

People have been fined for not allowing faster vehicles to get past but not seen that for some time now. Living in an area of single track roads I am very aware of this.
I have seen people being pulled over by police but only given a verbal warning for this offence.
We got a new police sargeant here once who decreed that anyone harassing tourists to get past would be prosecuted.
This edict was quietly dropped after about a month as he had been the victim of slow inconsiderate drivers who would not let him past.