Do we really think most motorist are good and courteous?

[MrHappyCyclist]

Do we not have an obligation to be courteous. The correct position to be in is one that allows me to cycle safely and doesn't unduly inconvenience other road users, only occasionally does this require me to be in the middle of the lane. As a competent cyclist I can usually cycle quite close to the edge of the road quite safely and allow other road users room to pass. It is ignorant and dangerous to hog the middle of the lane come what may.

Well, to be considered courteous cyclists, we ought to behave in a courteous manner, which includes not blocking faster vehicles unnecessarily. I don't think that equates to an obligation to cycle at the edge of the road, though.

The important distinction to make here is that it is for the cyclist, not the motorist, to decide when it is or isn't safe to be passed, and any courteous following motorist should simply accept that decision. Apart from anything else, the cyclist probably is aware of issues that the driver is not aware of, including: knowledge of good cyclecraft, knowledge of the road surface as it affect bicycles, awareness of typical dangers to cyclists, greater awareness of the road ahead due to better visibility, and better access to audio information.

We do, of course, have an obligation to obey HC rule 169 and "not hold up a long queue of traffic". For example, I was cycling in the North York Moors a couple of weeks ago, and I did feel I had to stop at the side to let trucks pass when going up the 1-in-4 hills a couple of times. I was happy to do this because the trucks themselves were patiently crawling up the hills behind me.

The flip side is that pillocks like this one should chill, and realize that there would be nowhere for them to go even if the cyclist did move to the side. (In this particular case, there was a very good reason for not letting the van come alongside if the driver just took the trouble to look more than 4 metres in front of his bonnet.)

I, myself, have had non-cycling critics and trolls on my YouTube channel trying to make out that I was a dangerous cyclists who deliberately blocks traffic, etc, etc, which prompted me to post these two videos of my typical outward and return journeys so that I can challenge them to tell me exactly where they think this is the case next time they try to criticize.

As far as cycling close to the edge of the road is concerned, it depends on just how close you mean. I am probably sufficiently competent to cycle for 100 yards along a 12 inch wide ridge, 200 feet above the ground, but it doesn't mean I should do it. Cycling in the gutter is dangerous for a whole load of reasons.

I think there will be very many occasions when it really is not safe to let people pass, but when the majority of motorists think it is safe. This is probably the crux of my argument here.

I try to adhere to a carefully thought out policy, which I have written out here. I have to admit that I am currently revising my thinking on some of the nice comments about motorists in the pre-amble, though.

 

[Dan B]

The important distinction to make here is that it is for the cyclist, not the motorist, to decide when it is or isn't safe to be passed, and any courteous following motorist should simply accept that decision.

This is the relevant bit, yes. The courteous motorist does me the courtesy of assuming I am a courteous cyclist rather than assuming when I am doing something which inconveniences them that it is merely because I am selfish.

And vice versa, of course.

 

[jack the lad]

Do you understand the concept of 'primary position'? Just asking.

As I said - there are times when it is necessary to cycle in the middle of the lane, that doesn't mean it should be the invariable position. It is reasonable to compromise on how much of the road each of the different users can lay claim to. Many cyclists don't seem to understand this and think they have some absolute right to take over the road without regard to how much it inconveniences other road users. They are no better than car drivers who do the same.

If as a cyclist I need to swerve occasionally to avoid an obstacle at the edge of the road it must be my responsibility to check it is clear first and stop/slow if it isn't, not to expect cars to form an orderly queue behind me just in case I might. If I can't ride without wobbling all over the place I shouldn't be on a bike on the road, again I should not claim a right to hold up car drivers to allow for my incompetence.

it is for the cyclist, not the motorist, to decide when it is or isn't safe to be passed

I'm not sure that you can claim that in such absolute terms. It certainly isnt the right of a cyclist to make it more dangerous for someone to pass in order to try to stop them doing so.

As a cyclist I can filter safely (in my opinion) through stationary traffic at around 15 mph allowing only inches to spare. If a car then passes me at 30 mph (i.e. the same 15mph speed differential) I think it is quite reasonable for them to only give me a metre or so of clearance (even the most incompetent motorist can judge the width of their car to that sort of accuracy) and not have to follow me until they can cross to the other side of a white line. Of course I prefer if they give me more room, but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to more. As speeds rise the margins of safety should, obviously,also rise and the vast majority of motorists do follow this. Cycling in 'primary' on fast roads merely reduces your margin of safety, and puts you even closer to ignorant drivers who are prepared to take risks with your life.

 

[Richard Mann]

Cycling in 'primary' on fast roads merely reduces your margin of safety, and puts you even closer to ignorant drivers who are prepared to take risks with your life.

The dangers of cycling in secondary on urban 30mph main roads are much exaggerated. In my experience, the best place is about 3.5m from the centre line, so they overtake you, but generally at a sensible speed. On a (typical) 30ft road that means about 1m from the edge of the road.

It's probably different on a 2 lanes each way 40ft road, but I don't cycle on those

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

As I said - there are times when it is necessary to cycle in the middle of the lane, that doesn't mean it should be the invariable position.

Who said it should be invariable? There are lots of places where it is safe to move over to secondary position to allow faster vehicles to get past, and at those places we should do so.

It is reasonable to compromise on how much of the road each of the different users can lay claim to. Many cyclists don't seem to understand this and think they have some absolute right to take over the road without regard to how much it inconveniences other road users.

See the quotation in my signature line.

If as a cyclist I need to swerve occasionally to avoid an obstacle at the edge of the road it must be my responsibility to check it is clear first and stop/slow if it isn't, not to expect cars to form an orderly queue behind me just in case I might.

If I can't ride without wobbling all over the place I shouldn't be on a bike on the road, again I should not claim a right to hold up car drivers to allow for my incompetence.

It is a matter of self-preservation to do a shoulder check before changing road position, and also to let a following car pass if you think there would be any danger to yourself in not doing so, even (or especially) if the driver is being unreasonable. In any case, the cyclist should have checked, signalled and moved out to a strong position well in advance of the hazard. However, a truly courteous driver would have anticipated that the cyclist will need to move out and adjusted speed accordingly, especially if they have seen the cyclist look back and signal.

So, you are implying that if a cyclist is wobbling, it is OK for a driver to pass them very close and risk knocking them off their bike? I don't think so. I agree that the cyclist would be well-advised to practice and/or get some training, but that's a different matter; a courteous motorist ought to take account of the possible dangers of passing this particular cyclist.

I'm not sure that you can claim that in such absolute terms. It certainly isnt the right of a cyclist to make it more dangerous for someone to pass in order to try to stop them doing so.

As a cyclist I can filter safely (in my opinion) through stationary traffic at around 15 mph allowing only inches to spare. If a car then passes me at 30 mph (i.e. the same 15mph speed differential) I think it is quite reasonable for them to only give me a metre or so of clearance (even the most incompetent motorist can judge the width of their car to that sort of accuracy) and not have to follow me until they can cross to the other side of a white line.

I'm not sure what you mean by the first para there.

Regarding the second, in that specific circumstance, if they left a clear metre of space between us, then I would accept that, even though I wouldn't consider it courteous motoring. I am sure a lot of motorists think they can judge the width of their vehicle far more accurately than they really can, but I don't have any evidence to support that (any more than you have evidence that they can judge it accurately).

Of course I prefer if they give me more room, but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to more.

Cycling in 'primary' on fast roads merely reduces your margin of safety, and puts you even closer to ignorant drivers who are prepared to take risks with your life.

Who mentioned entitlement? We are talking about the number of motorists we consider to be discourteous, and I consider any motorist who passes me within a metre at 30mph to be discourteous.

The last part is a sweeping generalization. It really depends on the road, the traffic, and a whole load of other factors.

 

[jack the lad]

Errr...

I think it looks like we are actually agreeing with each other!

 

[Origamist]

The Guardian bike blog on Primary:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/01/cyclist-take-the-lane

 

[guitarpete247]

You often find that there is sweet spot in the tarmac approx 1m from the kerb where cars nearside tyres run. That is where I prefer to be. Taking up primary (a little wider) coming up to pinch points or when passing parked vehicles.

I find most drivers appriciate the danger they can put you under from a close overtake. It's just the very rare idiot who thinks they can judge the width of their car/van to the nearest mm and can get that close.

Living in the sticks, however, we don't have many of them as we have a lot of horses and drivers give way to them all the time. Only in towns have I really come up against aggressive/selfish drivers and even there they are very few and far between. As most have commented. An aggressive selfish driver will be an aggressive selfish person no matter what. They'll even be aggressive selfish bus passengers.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

I think it looks like we are actually agreeing with each other!

 

[PaulB]

I've often seen it said by cyclists, particularly fellow camera wearing ones, that most drivers are good and courteous and it is just a minority that are bad. In fact, I've often said it myself. However, on reflection, I'm not so sure about that. Is it just a politically correct thing to say, or do people really believe it?

I believe it. I don't know if it's the people who live around where I live but I find the overwhelming majority of car drivers to be courteous and respectful of me as a cyclist (can't speak for anyone else). I always go out of my way to be courteous back as it's very important to foster good relations with other road users. If and when a car gives me a wide berth or waits behind me until it's safe to overtake, I always wave my thanks.

Of course there are morons behind the wheel but then again, there are morons behind the handlebars. The majority in each group, in my opinion, are decent, courteous and respectful.

 

[davefb]

tbh

having cycled and (by a very large majority) driven the route you take to work ( and most of the insane driving is from)

I'd make this statement,, 'most drivers are apalling to all other road users'... they're not singling out cyclists in the main, especially in commuter time...

if that was the only way of judging motorist ability, learner drivers would just give up and never get behind the wheel again.......

its too narrow for two lanes really down blackburn road.. and people seem to think it's a race track and its too narrow for that messing about they've done in farnworth or two lanes where the traffic lights are .. I assume the narrowing is to try to slow traffic and help the peds?

i just feel it provokes poor aggressive driving style in the people coming down it ( trying to get into the right lane, avoid being behind right turning traffic or the taxi who suddenly stops with hazards on) , not saying this as an excuse, but i dont like driving down it, let alone cycling..


so yeah, in the main i think most drivers ARE courteous..... but not nesc most drivers down that route!

 

[slowmotion]

Are most motorists courteous? I think that depends on where you ride. They must be in west London. I'm still alive after venturing out onto the tarmac daily for the last couple of years, and I've never had a seriously horrible moment. Hundreds of thousands of people on four wheels have come across me without any problems at all. Thanks to all of them.


[ as for that self-gratification artist in the Boltons last week....... ]

 

[Davidc]

In particular, I suspect that the vast majority of UK motorists do not share our view that cycles are road vehicles having the same right to be on the road as any other vehicles, that the middle of the lane is the correct position for us to be in, and that our moving to the side to let them pass is a courtesy, not an obligation. (Assuming we do share that view.)

I'm doing my bit to re-educate them! I don't take the lane unless I need to for my own safety and comfort, and get the impression that at pinch points taking away their choice suits many drivers who just drop further back until I move over again. Some exceptions of course, including those $h1t$ who get up close behind and sound their horns.

It's very rare IME to get real grief from motorists for taking the lane when it's done sensibly. Talking to non-cycling drivers about cyclist behaviour they seem much more bothered by RLJs, lack of lighting, and cyclists who don't make it clear what they're doing.

 

[gaz]

Do i think that most motorists are good?
Yes.
I travel through some very busy parts of london on my way to and from work. I estimate that throughout a weeks worth of commuting I must pass and get passed by several thousand vehicles and I have an issues with only a handful of them. Even then my issues may be minor ones.

 

[growingvegetables]

2 years ago,I'd have said “A few superb drivers, lots of averagely competent sheep, and a few atrocious.” Classic bell curve

But I was off the bike for about 18months – and just got back on this spring. It's been “interesting”coming back after that break, and I'm sure the “curve” has shifted for the worse in that time, at least in Leeds. The overtakes are closer; the squeezes and barging past more frequent. In just 400 miles, I had at least as many hairy incidents as I'd had in maybe 10 years (2000 miles a year?).

And there's a new element ... at least to me.

guy passes REAL close (and slow), window down, and berates me for being on the road;​

“delightful” pair insist I keep to the cycle lane – ie the double yellow lines (huh? Yup, that's what “they took care to explain to me”);​

“lady” who tucks her front bumper in, just a couple of inches behind my heel – she considered I should be riding in the left hand gutter, and told me so ... in words of one syllable;​

guy drives straight at me at a pinch point, arm out the window, one finger raised in “salute”.
​

That's a level of conscious and overt “I-own-the-road” intimidation that's new to me – way, way beyond the casual thoughtlessness, bad decision-making, incompetent risk-taking, or abuse of speed I've always known to look out for.

Hey - but that's only four drivers; and there's maybe another half dozen that scared me witless ....... out of the thousands I meet on my commute?