Do roads need white lines?

[mjr]

I've seen a few cycle lanes narrower than a bike - outskirts of Preston for instance.
(I know you were being sarcastic by the way)

I think there's a few like that around Downham Market and Hunstanton too. I can't think of one in King's Lynn but it has far more cycle tracks than lanes.

This is probably where the problems for cycling will arise from this trial. I'm sure the trial areas will follow the guidance on centre line removal to the letter because they're being watched (and paid?) to see that they do, but it may combine with many places where they've failed to do the minimum for cycling and so put people in danger. It's time to make the minimum guidance a mandatory minimum and for DfT to start listening to the various cycling groups which simply can't hold the highway authorities to account on their own.

 

[Profpointy]

I think there's a few like that around Downham Market and Hunstanton too. I can't think of one in King's Lynn but it has far more cycle tracks than lanes.

This is probably where the problems for cycling will arise from this trial. I'm sure the trial areas will follow the guidance on centre line removal to the letter because they're being watched (and paid?) to see that they do, but it may combine with many places where they've failed to do the minimum for cycling and so put people in danger. It's time to make the minimum guidance a mandatory minimum and for DfT to start listening to the various cycling groups which simply can't hold the highway authorities to account on their own.

In my view a better first step would be to get rid of cycle lanes - I reckon they substantially increase the risk to cyclists; those who use them and those who sensibly don't

 

[derrick]

With the amount of numties on the road, without the lines showing them the way you are asking for trouble. Then you have the idiots in the 4x4s no lines they will just sit in the middle of the road and block the roads completly.

 

[sidevalve]

Not sure why cycle lanes are relevant- Waste of time, just look at the number of comments on here about them 'don't / wont use them' etc so don't cry when motorists ignore them. For every comment about the big bad drivers running in the cycle lane [which is not compulsory for cyclists so it isn't compulsory for drivers either] there are lots more stating how useless they are. Can't really have it both ways. Stop lines at junctions are just that - STOP lines crossing them without stopping is an offence - remove them and the way is clear for hundreds of injury / compo claims of the 'Oh he pulled out too far / no I didn't' line [and sorry to say that will involve cyclists on both sides of the fence]. Lane markings give much more information than just the width of the lane - look it up if you don't know [and if not why not - you use the road]
As for the eyesight of drivers the law states a driver MUST attain a certain standard [no matter how poor that may be] and MUST wear glasses if required and sorry but that is one more requirement that no cyclist ever has to pass

 

[Spinney]

Not sure why cycle lanes are relevant- Waste of time, just look at the number of comments on here about them 'don't / wont use them' etc so don't cry when motorists ignore them. For every comment about the big bad drivers running in the cycle lane [which is not compulsory for cyclists so it isn't compulsory for drivers either] there are lots more stating how useless they are. Can't really have it both ways. Stop lines at junctions are just that - STOP lines crossing them without stopping is an offence - remove them and the way is clear for hundreds of injury / compo claims of the 'Oh he pulled out too far / no I didn't' line [and sorry to say that will involve cyclists on both sides of the fence]. Lane markings give much more information than just the width of the lane - look it up if you don't know [and if not why not - you use the road]
As for the eyesight of drivers the law states a driver MUST attain a certain standard [no matter how poor that may be] and MUST wear glasses if required and sorry but that is one more requirement that no cyclist ever has to pass

This is incorrect.
If the boundary of a cycle lane is marked by a solid line, it is compulsory for drivers to stay out of it. Whether you agree with it or not...

 

[Spinney]

[QUOTE 4139237, member: 45"]The problem is that if you're going to take that line then it's also the case (I believe) that the cyclist is not permitted to cross the solid white line. So technically the cyclist is forced to stay in their lane.[/QUOTE]
Good point - that hadn't occurred to me. No problem if the lane is wide enough, but...

 

[MichaelW2]

All the evidence for success comes from complex urban intersections, usually blighted by excessive and confusing signage. By removing all the attention-grabbing instructional signs, drivers have to figure out what to do using observation, intelligence, common sense and communication.
Rural roads are very different, and the evidence for removing central white paint is not there.

 

[Spinney]

Which all goes to show that the decision needs to be made on a case by case basis, using only evidence from very similar road situations to make decisions.

 

[Drago]

What about autonomous cars that use the road markings to make progress?

 

[mjr]

There is good evidence from places like London (Exhibition Road), Ashford in Kent and the other 'naked road' sites as to the effectiveness of removing road centre markings.

What evidence is that then? My experience of Exhibition Road is that it's horrible and only saved by a 20mph limit and the lack of kerbs meaning that cycles can hide among the street furniture, as outlined in https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/lessons-from-exhibition-road/

[QUOTE 4139237, member: 45"]The problem is that if you're going to take that line then it's also the case (I believe) that the cyclist is not permitted to cross the solid white line. So technically the cyclist is forced to stay in their lane.[/QUOTE]
Not in general, but mandatory cycle lanes are defined by Traffic Regulation Orders (except London) so it's always possible that a council screws one up.

[QUOTE 4139245, member: 45"]There's a minor road in our town which has a line right down the middle and housing on one side.[/QUOTE]
Only one? I think most of the roads bordering the railway (Ridgeway Avenue?) or green spaces (Alexandra Parade?) are like that.

[QUOTE 4139277, member: 45"]Thanks. I remember reading years ago that Boris was trying to deal with the technicality of cyclists not being able to cross the solid white line into an ASL on a red light, but never saw the outcome.[/QUOTE]
That's a different problem. The only way in was a mandatory cycle lane on the left, which some councils shortened to zero, just leaving a short dashed entry point and others added a similar zero-length lane on the right too. TfL probably got special permission similar to how they get other innovations first but I think we're still waiting for the official general solution (allowing cycles to cross the first stop line) in the next TSRGD, the draft of which is a 488-page appendix at https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/traffic-signs-regulations-and-general-directions-2016 and page 390 fixes the current flaw in (2)(a) of http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/regulation/43/made

 

[mustang1]

Taking away white lines makes a difference because we are accustomed to white lines. If we had roads that never had white lines and then we put the lines on, it would have the same impact.

So its not that the white lines are there or not there that makes drivers slow down, its more that something different is going on.

 

[Colin_P]

This is what I remembered from a few years ago....

http://thecityfix.com/blog/naked-streets-without-traffic-lights-improve-flow-and-safety/

It is not just white lines, it has to be signage and traffic lights as well. The film is well worth a watch.

And the concept was indeed first trialed in Holland not Germany.

 

[mjr]

[QUOTE 4139374, member: 9609"]...and when you see something like this streetview you need to be at 100% concentration and going a little slower, highway authorities don't go to this much bother and expense unless there is great danger. (and i think quite a few people have died at that junction)[/QUOTE]
They've not died there recently. The only collision report 2005-2014 was the slight injury http://www.cyclestreets.net/collisions/reports/2014100305814/

The A1 is Highways England who seem to apply the same blanket solutions everywhere vaguely similar... which is what I think we hope will be avoided in this trial, isn't it?

 

[DaveReading]

Round here, many drivers seem incapable of negotiating a right-hand bend without wandering over the central white line.

 

[PK99]

Yep, some small trials. It needs incrementally expanding to see.If the results stay true as the scale expands. After all, what may hold true for road safety in London may not 750 miles further North in Lerwick, with different traffic, road behaviours weather and levels of sunlight.

One must be careful the one doesn't interpret the results of a few trials as automatically applicable to everywhere, else one may as well just blindly copy the Dutch to begin with.

Narrow country lanes: white line = room fo cars approaching each other to pass, lines stop for a section = not enough room for two cars to pass