Disc Brake Upgrade Options

[Siclo]

If you went for new levers you'd have to make sure that they were compatible with your mechs too.

 

[Andrew Br]

So that's a Hy/Rd set-up, equivalent to the Spyre Hy/Rd? And so requires just a caliper swap and no new levers or cable etc?
It looks like they're retailing at £200+ which is a lot more than the Spyre Hy/Rds...is that the kind of figure you splashed out?
Based on @Siclo 's advice above they might be a bad match with my 4600 set up anyway, which would mean a lever change.

Siclo is correct, the Hope unit consists of a cable operated master cyclinder which mounts under the stem and hydraulic calipers.
The whole set-up comes ready to mount with hoses included and no need to bleed the system if the hoses are the correct length for your bike.
I can't remember how much I paid for mine but £220 sounds about right. I already had Hope rotors on the bike.

I've always been a little sceptical about the Hy/Rd. It seems to combine some of the worst features of cable brakes (cables) and hydraulics (the fluid).
They seem to get good reviews though.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I may help if people understand the different levers available on the market today. The problem is essentially one of matching two systems that may or may not, be compatible.
Older dual-pivot brakes such as Shimano and Campagnolo are high mechanical advantage brakes which means a small movement between pad and rim requires long lever travel. The levers have been optimized to ensure that they match the brake calipers. These brakes require a set-up where there's a very small gap between brake pad and rim.

Before dual pivot brakes we had single pivot brakes, typically called side-pulls. These had low mechanical advantage and could be set so that there's a big gap between brake pad and rim. They required levers which provided lots of cable pull.

Recently (maybe 8 years ago), Campagnolo went back to single pivot brakes on the rear. This meant that Campag gear levers are mis-matched - the one pulled more than the other. The extra clearance at the back was required because of low spoke-count wheels that rubbed against the brake pads when pedaling hard uphill.

Today Shimano has again changed the leverage of its brakes with the advent of it's new 11-speed gruppos.

Point being, you have to know what leverage your hydraulic converter requires. The fact that the converter is on the caliper or below the stem is irrelevant. More important is the type of lever you match with the system. I have no idea how Hope and others cope with the Campag mis-match but if the two manufacturers publish their mechanical advantages, you can match this with the travel required by the hydraulic converter and hopefully have a working system. It seems to me as if mechanics are not aware of these incompatibilities and are themselves frustrated being unable to get enough pad clearance but not run out of travel.

All of these converters are just stop-gap solutions. The best solution is a pure, rather than hybrid hydraulic brake.

 

[Siclo]

@Andrew Br , at some point you can have a go with my Hy-Rd's.

I didn't like the over large hoods on the shimano hydraulic levers. I'm also completely incompetent at bleeding full hydraulics, when I had a test bike the first thing I did was disassemble the Hy-Rd's pretty much completely to make sure I could fix at the roadside (having blown a hydraulic hose on a MTB - not a roadside repair!)

 

[winjim]

I may help if people understand the different levers available on the market today. The problem is essentially one of matching two systems that may or may not, be compatible.
Older dual-pivot brakes such as Shimano and Campagnolo are high mechanical advantage brakes which means a small movement between pad and rim requires long lever travel. The levers have been optimized to ensure that they match the brake calipers. These brakes require a set-up where there's a very small gap between brake pad and rim.

Before dual pivot brakes we had single pivot brakes, typically called side-pulls. These had low mechanical advantage and could be set so that there's a big gap between brake pad and rim. They required levers which provided lots of cable pull.

Recently (maybe 8 years ago), Campagnolo went back to single pivot brakes on the rear. This meant that Campag gear levers are mis-matched - the one pulled more than the other. The extra clearance at the back was required because of low spoke-count wheels that rubbed against the brake pads when pedaling hard uphill.

Today Shimano has again changed the leverage of its brakes with the advent of it's new 11-speed gruppos.

Point being, you have to know what leverage your hydraulic converter requires. The fact that the converter is on the caliper or below the stem is irrelevant. More important is the type of lever you match with the system. I have no idea how Hope and others cope with the Campag mis-match but if the two manufacturers publish their mechanical advantages, you can match this with the travel required by the hydraulic converter and hopefully have a working system. It seems to me as if mechanics are not aware of these incompatibilities and are themselves frustrated being unable to get enough pad clearance but not run out of travel.

All of these converters are just stop-gap solutions. The best solution is a pure, rather than hybrid hydraulic brake.

Campagnolo provide a choice of rear brake calipers. I have dual pivot front and rear. I'm pretty sure the cable pull is identical on both levers and surely Campagnolo would have mentioned in the installation instructions were that not the case. UK cyclists also tend to have their levers the opposite way round to the rest of the world (right lever = front brake) which would throw a huge spanner into the works.

Single pivots are for the weight weenies I think.

 

[EasyPeez]

I also find it difficult to set up the Spyres with a short lever travel and no rubbing

That's odd; I've never had any trouble setting mine up just right. Couldn't be to do with your levers could it?

@EasyPeez , @Andrew Br 's setup is a cable lever with the cable running to Hope's box of tricks mounted under the stem (?), after the box of tricks is hydraulic hose to the caliper so you get to keep your current levers. Calipers, discs etc in with the box of tricks cost about £220

His Spyres are on a different bike than the V-twin.

TRP Hy-Rd is cable all the way to the caliper, hydraulics all in the caliper, cost approx £180 for the pair plus levers.

Thanks for the clarification @Siclo . Given the cost and the compatibility issues you and @Yellow Saddle have raised I don't think this is the right option for me. A couple of final questions, you mention £180 for Hy/Rds plus levers, does that mean the Hy/Rds will bring the same lever ratio problems i.e I'll likely need some 10 speed 105/Ultegra levers? I had assumed it would just be a straight swap of the calipers.
I assume a BB5 to Spyre upgrade would just be a caliper-swap job?
Thanks.

 

[Andrew Br]

That's odd; I've never had any trouble setting mine up just right. Couldn't be to do with your levers could it?

It's possible since they're Campags.
Another issue is the convoluted cable run to the rear caliper. Having said that, the front is also difficult to set up.

 

[Pale Rider]

@EasyPeez

The cable actuated hydraulics should do the job, but clearance at the rear can be tight if the calliper is mounted inside the rear triangle, as with many road bikes.

The Spyr brake is designed for the job, but it wouldn't fit on a road bike my local bike shop was converting.

 

[EasyPeez]

@EasyPeez

The cable actuated hydraulics should do the job, but clearance at the rear can be tight if the calliper is mounted inside the rear triangle, as with many road bikes.

The Spyr brake is designed for the job, but it wouldn't fit on a road bike my local bike shop was converting.

Thanks for that; I did wonder about the fit, with them being bigger calipers, but assumed it wouldn't be a problem as they come specced on the Equilibrium Disc 20 which has the same frame dimensions as my Eq 10. I'm keen to try them before I shell out though, as I'm not sure about this lever travel issue.

I'll be in York at the weekend so will see if I can find a bike with some on that one of the shops will let me take a spin on and if I like them I can check they'll fit my bike while I'm there. Cheers.

 

[Pale Rider]

Thanks for that; I did wonder about the fit, with them being bigger calipers, but assumed it wouldn't be a problem as they come specced on the Equilibrium Disc 20 which has the same frame dimensions as my Eq 10. I'm keen to try them before I shell out though, as I'm not sure about this lever travel issue.

I'll be in York at the weekend so will see if I can find a bike with some on that one of the shops will let me take a spin on and if I like them I can check they'll fit my bike while I'm there. Cheers.

Given the enormous bias of front braking on a bike over the rear, have you thought about just doing the front?

That is a guaranteed fit, and the shorter and straighter cable run could make for better feel in use.

 

[User33236]

A colleague of mine swapped his BB7 calipers for Juin Tech R1's and rates them highly.

I have Shimano RS685 full hydro on one of my bikes and they are brilliant. As you say though they are 11 speed shifters and that could get expensive, especially if you rear hub is only 10 speed at present.

 

[EasyPeez]

Given the enormous bias of front braking on a bike over the rear, have you thought about just doing the front?

That is a guaranteed fit, and the shorter and straighter cable run could make for better feel in use.

I would probably do both, for the simple reason that it is my CX brakes that are rubbish and really need upgrading, rather than my road brakes. So if I do decide to get Hy/Rds it will be with a view to passing down both my current Spyres.

I can't stand to leave the rear BB5 on the CX, more because of the constant rotor rubbing and faffing with adjustment rather than poor stopping performance.

Cheers.

 

[jowwy]

i have spyres on my newly built carbon disc bike, no issues with clearance or set-up and they work a dream running 105 levers

 

[EasyPeez]

i have spyres on my newly built carbon disc bike, no issues with clearance or set-up and they work a dream running 105 levers

I think it's the Hy/Rds that @Pale Rider was saying might present a clearance problem, as they are bigger due to the fluid well in the caliper. I have standard Spyres on my road bike already. Cheers.

 

[Pale Rider]

I think it's the Hy/Rds that @Pale Rider was saying might present a clearance problem, as they are bigger due to the fluid well in the caliper. I have standard Spyres on my road bike already. Cheers.

Yes, that's right.

Inevitably, the cable entry point is also slightly different to the original calliper.

That can also need some minor fettling.

I don't doubt the conversion proceeds smoothly and easily on nearly every bike.