Disc Brake Road Bike, What's Feasible?

[PpPete]

Here's a couple of disc brake road bikes at sub 17, and sub 16, pounds from Volagi:-

http://volagi.com/bikes

not quite my cup of tea but getting closer

pricy - but very nice

 

[MacB]

Interesting that bike manufacturers seem to be sourcing 130mm OLD rear disk hubs now. I wonder who is making them?

I think Royce do one and so do Phil Woods, both in the £££ range, the only others I've seen are American Classics and I've read mention on others that are apparently just ACs rebranded. But I also read a lot of negatives around bearings and build quality for the AC hubs.

 

[anyuser]

I also believe Velocity do one and my Whyte R7 has a Whyte branded one so I assume it is sourced from the Far East somewhere.

 

[Wobblers]

Here's a couple of disc brake road bikes at sub 17, and sub 16, pounds from Volagi:-

http://volagi.com/bikes

not quite my cup of tea but getting closer

I'm going to be a philistine here and say they need to have mudguards and rack... Oh, and an Alfine 11 hub....

 

[threebikesmcginty]

I'm going to be a philistine here and say they need to have mudguards and rack... Oh, and an Alfine 11 8 hub....

And orange. Complete agreement!

 

[MacB]

I'm going to be a philistine here and say they need to have mudguards and rack... Oh, and an Alfine 11 hub....

Yep, as I say, not quite my cup of tea, but it's nice to see some progress. To be honest I've always envisaged 3 bikes, commuter, allrounder/shopping bike and a nice weekend bike. This is getting really close to the weekend bike requirements, in fact I may be going towards the idea of vertical dropouts and a chain tensioner for hub gears anyway. My experience with the Pompetamine, track ends, mud guards and disc brakes is not as satisfying as I'd like. Rear wheel removal and installation is more of a faff than I like, and I've only done it in practice in the garage. Even with M+ tyres I fear a visitation when out and about. I could mess about with chaintugs etc but it's all very far from the simplicity of vertical dropouts, I also prefer the horizontal dropouts of my Surly. I've looked at the eccentric BB options and I don't like the alteration to ride position that entails. I've also looked at the sliding dropouts whereby the dropouts themselves are vertical but the whole dropout is bolted into a sliding option, looks like a closed trackend. But it's expensive and you still have the possibility of slippage or creep.

So now I'm toying with buying a Genesis CdF and putting the hub gear wheelset and cockpit onto that frame and using a surly singulator, in push up mode, for chain tension. That would then leave me with a 9 speed drivetrain, wheelset and controls to put onto a custom ti frame I have my eye on.

Ideally I'd just buy a CdF frame and forks but they aren't sold seperately and I've not managed to find a 60cm one for sale yet, though I'm keeping my eye out.

 

[P.H]

I've looked at the eccentric BB options and I don't like the alteration to ride position that entails. 

I've heard this several times, but never from anyone who has ridden this system for any length of time.  It's a 6mm radius, I have combinations of shoes and shorts with more variation.

 

[MacB]

I've heard this several times, but never from anyone who has ridden this system for any length of time. It's a 6mm radius, I have combinations of shoes and shorts with more variation.

Is a fair point, I probably lacked a bit of clarity there, if that was the only negative then I'd probably give an EBB a go. To be honest I've read a vast amount of threads on the net about the options and you'll find strong support for every method. My LBS says why sod about? either horizontal dropouts or vertical and whack on an old derailler, they aren't fans of track ends...as I've discovered Then there's the fact my head can be easily turned....Vin Cox set the new round the world cycling record on a Genesis CdF, with Alfine 8 speed hub gear and used a push up style tensioner(looks like a Surly one but I'm not sure, certainly similar design), so that's 18k miles without a problem.

http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/gear-news/cycle-show-vin-coxs-genesis-croix-de-fer/5671.html

This is what started me re-examining:-

Sliding vertical dropouts - Paragon Machineworks seem to get the best write ups, certainly most of the slippage complaints seem to be around other brands of sliders. But it's expensive and needs a frame built specifically and the dropouts themselves work out heavier.

EBB - read a lot of issues around ones that work on standard BB shells(like the Excentricker), slippage, fitting problems etc, as per the Paragon it does seem that if you do it right, and spend more(ie Bushnell) then the problems are less of an issue. But my reading has indicated a preference for the sliders option and, most importantly, from those that have bikes equipped in both ways. Again the EBB adds a bit of weight and you're talking a specific frame again.

Track Ends/Horizontal Dropouts - I currently have both of these and definitely prefer the horizontals for ease of use, but both add their own complexity when married with disc brakes. Sadly my horizontal dropout frame hasn't got disc brake tabs but has got a derailler hanger and it's vice versa for the track end frame. Though these are the lightest options, no additional weight.

Vertical dropouts and chain tensioning device - I've kicked this idea around several times but had always been thinking along the lines of a derailler style action rather than push up tension from one wheel. I was also always trying to ensure a bike could peform all the functions, ie fixed, SS, hub gear and derailler. Then I realised that, if I took fixed out of the equation, everything else would fit together more neatly. In fact I could save myself a fortune in special frames if I was happy to go with a chain tensioner. The Surly one weighs about 120g, offset that against the weight penalty for sliders or EBB and it's bugger all. Also my main interest is running hub gears and they're not as sensitive to chain tension as a fixed and nor, some claim, as a SS, though I'm not sure on that last one. I've also got the option to mess about with magic gears and halflinks as well. Possibly the most important aspect is that a chain tensioner of this sort wouldn't bother me aesthetically, in fact I'd probably forget about it very quickly.

So, after all this musing and muttering to myself I was aware that I still had my plans around a new weekend bike in titanium with carbon disc forks. It struck me that the spec of the CdF was pretty much what I'd been looking at for the ti bike. Plus I prefer the looks of the CdF to the Pompetamine and buying a complete bike would get me all those bits cheaper than buying seperately.

There you go PH, now feel free to shoot me full of holes and set me trawling the net again

 

[GrumpyGregry]

So now I'm toying with buying a Genesis CdF and putting the hub gear wheelset and cockpit onto that frame and using a surly singulator, in push up mode, for chain tension. That would then leave me with a 9 speed drivetrain, wheelset and controls to put onto a custom ti frame I have my eye on.

Ideally I'd just buy a CdF frame and forks but they aren't sold seperately and I've not managed to find a 60cm one for sale yet, though I'm keeping my eye out.

ask Genesis direct. Early this year they indicated they might have some CdF frames available. My beer token's have been used elsewhere or I've be in the queue in front of you!

 

[P.H]

There you go PH, now feel free to shoot me full of holes and set me trawling the net again 

Ha, no shooting from me, I agonise over these decisions myself, then get impatient and toss a coin, I doubt it makes much difference, as I'm sure I've said before.  I just think it unwise to discount any option until trying it for yourself.  Mercian and Bob Jacksons use sliding drop outs and quote the reason you gave, when you push them they admit they can buy those off the shelf but would need to get non sliding Rohloff dropouts custom made.  I've run hub gears with a tensioner and am likely to do so again on a folder.  I recently had a custom frame made and chose a clamp type EBB, it's so simple.  If I could have found a stock frame that offered everything else I wanted, I'd have used a tensioner, though the double pulley type like an Alfine or Rohloff.  The tensioner on Vin Cox's bike doesn't seem to be taking up much of the slack, which shows it's not as critical as some may think,  Mark Beaumont's RTW bike also used a chain tensioner.  If going custom there is another option, half size EBB, Phil Wood makes these, they do what they say, offer half a link of adjustment, they are used by Singular on their lovely Ti frame;

http://www.flickr.co...n/photostream/ 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/singularcycles/4079460347/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/singularcycles/4560027453/

 

[MacB]

ask Genesis direct. Early this year they indicated they might have some CdF frames available. My beer token's have been used elsewhere or I've be in the queue in front of you!

interesting Greg, I had spoken to them on the phone but only about the Day1 frameset, I might give them a try re the CdF. Though I expect we'll start seeing a lot more in the way of 700c disc ready frames in the future.

 

[potsy]

Do you ever get chance to ride these bikes Mac? By the time you perfect your dream machines you'll be too old to ride 'em

I still really fancy a Croix de fer, was disappointed the 2011 Tri-cross didn't go with disc brakes or I might have been tempted.

 

[Norm]

... was disappointed the 2011 Tri-cross didn't go with disc brakes or I might have been tempted.

Funnily enough, I was extremely glad that it didn't have discs, for exactly the same reason.

 

[MacB]

Ha, no shooting from me, I agonise over these decisions myself, then get impatient and toss a coin, I doubt it makes much difference, as I'm sure I've said before. I just think it unwise to discount any option until trying it for yourself. Mercian and Bob Jacksons use sliding drop outs and quote the reason you gave, when you push them they admit they can buy those off the shelf but would need to get non sliding Rohloff dropouts custom made. I've run hub gears with a tensioner and am likely to do so again on a folder. I recently had a custom frame made and chose a clamp type EBB, it's so simple. If I could have found a stock frame that offered everything else I wanted, I'd have used a tensioner, though the double pulley type like an Alfine or Rohloff. The tensioner on Vin Cox's bike doesn't seem to be taking up much of the slack, which shows it's not as critical as some may think, Mark Beaumont's RTW bike also used a chain tensioner. If going custom there is another option, half size EBB, Phil Wood makes these, they do what they say, offer half a link of adjustment, they are used by Singular on their lovely Ti frame;

http://www.flickr.co...n/photostream/

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.co...les/4560027453/

cheers PH good info there, I'm not sure on the pic of the Vin Cox bike, that was taken as it was displayed at a bike show after the trip. The chain does look a little slack to me and I'd be surprised if he rode it that slack all the time. I've also read of people running hub gears with no tensioning device at all, just careful magic gear selection, non ramped cog/ring and decent chain catching device. Singular were one of the makers I'd looked at, the Peregrine in particular, I also like the look of Fixie Incs Pureblood(though worry that the big kid in me just thinks Pureblood is a cool name). I did lust after some very high end custom frames like Serotta or IF but decided that it was too much for a bike that would only get use at weekends and in good weather. So I'm now looking at something like a Burls custom frame or VN Amazon, the Amazon originally tempted me due to the 132.5mm rear spacing, same as my Surly, allowing for use of 130 or 135 rear hubs. But I've now been told by 3 frame builders that they wouldn't recommend 132.5 spacing as it means the dropouts are under constant pressure. Then you think to yourself, well why would major frame manufacturers spec 132.5 if it caused problems, then I get confused and just stop thinking about it for a while. Plus the amazon has canti mounts as well and would their presence bug me.

My practical soul will mean that I'll finalise the run around bike and the commuter before I 'flip the coin' on the weekend frame. But the temptation for the complete CdF is growing, by my calcs this would save me about £300 against buying the parts for the ti frameset.

 

[P.H]

 So I'm now looking at something like a Burls custom frame or VN Amazon, the Amazon originally tempted me due to the 132.5mm rear spacing, same as my Surly, allowing for use of 130 or 135 rear hubs. But I've now been told by 3 frame builders that they wouldn't recommend 132.5 spacing as it means the dropouts are under constant pressure. 

These have been around for years, did they give you one scrap of evidence of anyone who had ever had a problem with this system?  Did you ask them if they could set their jig to make it and how much trouble that would be, ha!