Difference between riding and training?

[totallyfixed]

I'm in my early 30s & as you know I don't race/TT in the UK. I'll drop the HIT session the week before I leave the UK. Once I'm out in Italy my training is chaotic at best. I'll do solo rides throw in MTBing 1 or 2 days/week, a ride with my wife plus a hard club ride on once a week.

Best times? Well being european they do things in km not miles & I've not entered a TT over a nominal 40km
10km hill climb: 9.83km, 7.2% ave gradient - 27m 46s
20km 'flat' TT (<0.75% altitude gain): 20.65km, 138m altitude gain - 27m 2s
20km 'hilly' TT (0.75%<>3% altitude gain): 19.88km, 412m altitude gain - 32m 28s
40km TT: 41.28km, 381m altitude gain - 1h 2m 31s

Thanks for that, interestingly those times are within a few percent of my better half's and her training bears no resemblance to yours.

 

[italiafirenze]

Just read this on Cycling Weekly on FB:

"I am still recovering from the kicking I received on our lunch time ride. Despite weekly mileage of 150-200 miles I am a long way from fit. Riding is no substitute for training however much you kid yourself."

Is there really a big difference between regular riding and structured training for the regular cyclist?

If any of that lot above answers your question I'd be surprised.

My choice of answer would be "For the regular cyclist?". Not especially. Sounds like the quoted gent was riding with some folks above his level; ride with them long enough and you will approach their level. 200 miles a week and the man will be fit by comparison to the average person; unless he's walking with his bike.

It's about enjoying it and getting out of it what you want. If you want to race or be competitive in TTs then you can take on the "structured training programs". You do need to go harder to get faster and a lot of people do get to a plateau and stay there, mostly because that's where they are happy.

 

[totallyfixed]

If any of that lot above answers your question I'd be surprised.

My choice of answer would be "For the regular cyclist?". Not especially. Sounds like the quoted gent was riding with some folks above his level; ride with them long enough and you will approach their level. 200 miles a week and the man will be fit by comparison to the average person; unless he's walking with his bike.

It's about enjoying it and getting out of it what you want. If you want to race or be competitive in TTs then you can take on the "structured training programs". You do need to go harder to get faster and a lot of people do get to a plateau and stay there, mostly because that's where they are happy.

Agree with most of that but IME a plateau is reached more often because other things get in the way of training like work, children, etc. We do a lot of TT's and some hill climbs and the one thing that stands out amongst the top few percent is the greater time available to train and to a lesser extent the cash available for the best equipment, wind tunnel testing, it all helps.

 

[italiafirenze]

Agree with most of that but IME a plateau is reached more often because other things get in the way of training like work, children, etc. We do a lot of TT's and some hill climbs and the one thing that stands out amongst the top few percent is the greater time available to train and to a lesser extent the cash available for the best equipment, wind tunnel testing, it all helps.

I agree and think this is what I said. It gets to the point where you can't get better without giving more (be it time, money or physical effort; often all three) and the plateau occurs where the balance between what you'd need to give and the cost of giving it doesn't work.

I could spend a lot more hours training than I do, I could spend more money on faster bikes and a coach. I could probably give a bit more effort on the bike with the help of a dedicated training regime. But, right now, I choose not to; for any number of reasons. As you have chosen and as we all will eventually have to.

Of course there is the exception of the person who is literally as good as he is ever going to be, but I think that must only apply to a very small fraction of all the world's athletes, elite or otherwise.

 

[GrasB]

Thanks for that, interestingly those times are within a few percent of my better half's and her training bears no resemblance to yours.

Quick n' dirty calculations for ave power:
Hill Climb = 447w
Hilly TT = 449w
Flat TT = 442w

What's her flying 200m time? Mine is 10.14 seconds

 

[amaferanga]

Quick n' dirty calculations for ave power:
Hill Climb = 447w
Hilly TT = 449w
Flat TT = 442w

What's her flying 200m time? Mine is 10.14 seconds

Blooming heck, that's a lot of Watts. What do you weigh? If I could put out that many Watts at my weight I'd be a Pro!

 

[totallyfixed]

Quick n' dirty calculations for ave power:
Hill Climb = 447w
Hilly TT = 449w
Flat TT = 442w

What's her flying 200m time? Mine is 10.14 seconds

What a strange time to come up with, even supposing we all had access to a velodrome which most of us don't, though I think you should come and have a go at one of the forum organised sessions at Manchester. I have ridden in the team pursuit which I thoroughly enjoyed but from what I remember I was over 12 secs for the flying 200m.
Where did you get these times from and where did you do them? This is up there with Chris Hoy and Jason Kenny and considerably quicker than Anna Mears and Victoria Pendleton!!!
I on the other hand have an apology to make, I have been doing some number crunching and you are considerably quicker on a 7.2% hill climb. I looked at the figures for The Glossop Velo Kinder Hill Climb up Snake Pass which is almost exactly that gradient touching 8% in places but only 3.2 miles and this would have put you in the top 5 of specialist hill climbers.
I really don't know what to think, if you are actually producing this wattage then your time for the 41km TT should be around 55mins, this working on an average weight of 75kg and a bike weighing 9kg, giving an average speed of over 27mph

 

[GrasB]

What a strange time to come up with, even supposing we all had access to a velodrome which most of us don't, though I think you should come and have a go at one of the forum organised sessions at Manchester. I have ridden in the team pursuit which I thoroughly enjoyed but from what I remember I was over 12 secs for the flying 200m.
Where did you get these times from and where did you do them? This is up there with Chris Hoy and Jason Kenny and considerably quicker than Anna Mears and Victoria Pendleton!!!

Er, after actually doing the maths that's wrong, very wrong! 1.5kW over 10 seconds, that's about my absolute 5s maximal. According to the data that was a 728w run so that's either miss-filed under upright (I'd guess it should be semi-faired low racer 'bent looking at the kreuzotter calculator) or the power meter comp barfed, but I usually pick those up & don't save them as they're garbage. Times came from lazer trips on an enclosed outdoor velodrome & looking back it's about 1s quicker than anything else I've got on my laptop, 11.2 being the next quickest

I on the other hand have an apology to make, I have been doing some number crunching and you are considerably quicker on a 7.2% hill climb. I looked at the figures for The Glossop Velo Kinder Hill Climb up Snake Pass which is almost exactly that gradient touching 8% in places but only 3.2 miles and this would have put you in the top 5 of specialist hill climbers.

I ride with Cat 1/2 riders in Itally, only the light weight riders can can drop me up hill as long as as the climb takes no longer than 25 min, after that I'm mid Cat 1/High cat 2

I really don't know what to think, if you are actually producing this wattage then your time for the 41km TT should be around 55mins, this working on an average weight of 75kg and a bike weighing 9kg, giving an average speed of over 27mph

My problem is W/kg over long distances I'm too damn heavy.

 

[GrasB]

Blooming heck, that's a lot of Watts. What do you weigh? If I could put out that many Watts at my weight I'd be a Pro!

77-77.5kg. 5.75W/kg ish around 30min, but falling fast. I can maintain about 4.5W/kg for 1 hour if I get the pacing bang on but I'm basically too heady. This is part of the reason I have a pursuiters profile. Even as a VO2max monster at my weight I'll never have a great endurance & have to manage my pace very carefully. Climb a fraction to hard on a longer TT & I'm down at 3W/kg for the run, too much muscle to ever get back the oxygen without dropping my power well bellow FTP.

 

[amaferanga]

77-77.5kg. 5.75W/kg ish around 30min, but falling fast. I can maintain about 4.5W/kg for 1 hour if I get the pacing bang on but I'm basically too heady. This is part of the reason I have a pursuiters profile. Even as a VO2max monster at my weight I'll never have a great endurance & have to manage my pace very carefully. Climb a fraction to hard on a longer TT & I'm down at 3W/kg for the run, too much muscle to ever get back the oxygen without dropping my power well bellow FTP.

If you lose a few pounds you could be deadly

That's a huge drop off from 30min to 1 hour though. By comparison I'm around 67kg and my best FTP last season was about 320W so 4.8 W/kg. But my best 30min is only about 330W so 4.9 W/kg. My profile is pretty much that of an all rounder, except my 5s is rubbish. Currently racing as a 2nd Cat in the UK but aiming to drop a couple of kg and gain a few Watts and have a crack at getting 1st Cat.

 

[Riverman]

Just reading this on my phone. You are averaging over 40km/hour on the flat over 20km? To the average cyclist like me that seems a bit nuts

 

[GrasB]

What a strange time to come up with, even supposing we all had access to a velodrome which most of us don't

Flying 200s seem to be an important part of performance 'bent riding. So it seems logical for me to look at that figure. I think part of this is down to Battle Mountain where they do flying 200m records. The numbers are mind blowing;
Sam Whittingham knocking on the door of 83mph in '09
Barbara Buatois obliterating the 75mph marker in '10
Greg Westlake managing to do over 43.6mph using his arms!
Forget about the Olympics, forget about the TdF for me this is the pinnacle of cycling. It's what inspires me to do more, to push harder & see what I'm capable of.

If you lose a few pounds you could be deadly

That's a huge drop off from 30min to 1 hour though. By comparison I'm around 67kg and my best FTP last season was about 320W so 4.8 W/kg. But my best 30min is only about 330W so 4.9 W/kg. My profile is pretty much that of an all rounder, except my 5s is rubbish. Currently racing as a 2nd Cat in the UK but aiming to drop a couple of kg and gain a few Watts and have a crack at getting 1st Cat.

At around 35min of sustained effort I hit a wall where I'm unable to sustain my power levels & then drops fairly quickly. It flattens out around the 75 min marker & falls off in a much more expected manner.

According to the data that was a 728w run so that's either miss-filed under upright (I'd guess it should be semi-faired low racer 'bent looking at the kreuzotter calculator)

Yeah it's miss-filed. That was a semi-faired custom built low racer.

Just reading this on my phone. You are averaging over 40km/hour on the flat over 20km? To the average cyclist like me that seems a bit nuts

That's 45km/h & if you think that's nuts there are guys who are around 5km/h faster on that course than I am. I bet if you got on a clean TT bike & did a full effort run you'd be surprised at how fast you'd be. The difference between my late Boardman Hybrid & my TT bike was a 40.5% drop in the effective drag coefficient! That equates to a 3mph gain for the same power required to hit 20mph on the boardman.

 

[amaferanga]

At around 35min of sustained effort I hit a wall where I'm unable to sustain my power levels & then drops fairly quickly. It flattens out around the 75 min marker & falls off in a much more expected manner.

Pace it better then - set off at a slightly lower Wattage and build through the hour instead of going out too hard and losing your legs after 35 minutes!

 

[GrasB]

Pace it better then - set off at a slightly lower Wattage and build through the hour instead of going out too hard and losing your legs after 35 minutes!

That's if I am pacing properly! Why do you think I know it's more like 3W/kg if I miss-pace a climb?

 

[User16625]

Riding; going for a nice ride on the road not to hard not to easy just banging in the miles, in a scheduled training regime they would be called 'base miles'. This keeps your base line fitness up & you can do it in a social context. Most people will be sub-consciously working in the average power range between 50% (train term: recovery ride) & 80% (training term: hard base miles ride) maximal effort, which is typically faster than you'd think, for that ride length.

Training; you go out with a specific agenda to achieve specific things. Sure it may be a base miles ride or even a really easy recovery ride. However more often than not you'll have very specific things to do like intervals - 2 min hard pace, 1 min recovery & do that maybe 10 times. It will hurt - your lungs will be gasping for oxygen, your legs will burn & anything vaguely social will be impossible.

Taken to the extreme some of the really high power training would be simply unsafe on the road. Somewhere I saw a picture of Hoy doing a training session that ended up with him falling off the bike onto a crash mat at the side of the bike. For me it's normal for me to get blurred/tunnel vision & disorientation to the point that I need audible alarms to tell me when to stop & I'm struggling to remember to stop going at the very loud beep! Some times on the really short intervals the only thing that is keeping me upright is the turbo trainer, had I been on the open road I've hit the deck at >40mph well if I hadn't disappeared of the side of the road in one direction or another.

A lot of hills I work harder going down them than I do going up them, I just like speed. However I do frequently go like ^&*^&, pedalling as hard as my legs can physcially pedal until im forced to slow down coz I cant breath any harder. Does that count as training? I do this on most rides on my road bike.

On my mountain bike the rides are naturally harder and dont go all out at any specific moment. However I do sometimes return home feeling like I could lose a fight with an insect.