Developing cornering confidence

[asterix]

[QUOTE 1984287, member: 76"]The best cornering advice on two wheels is simple.

Relax and don't 'steer'

Simple as that, forget all the YouTube videos and lists of techniques. If you relax you will go round the corner like you are on rails. The moment you tense up, down you go. The moment you actually turn the bars, down you go.

Practice, practice, practice[/quote]


Also there's target fixation. i.e. only look in the direction you want to go, something you quickly learn on a motorbike. If you look elsewhere there's a dangerous tendency to go that way. Also lean with the bike and try to keep your head in the same line as the lean.

Don't get hung up on counter steering. It happens naturally if you get the leaning bit right. As SJ says.

WRT the pros doing it so easily on the telly, don't forget they have the roads closed for them and can use both sides. On narrow mountain roads a big danger is meeting an oncoming vehicle when either you, it or both are using a bit too much road.

It's always easy to spot the turbo-trained in the mountains. They whizz up the ascents then you catch 'em braking all the way down.

 

[VamP]

I have a one word advice for the OP: cyclocross.

 

[Smokin Joe]

I have a one word advice for the OP: cyclocross.

That's like suggesting to someone who can't maintain an erection to try incest.

 

[PK99]

- rotate your pelvis so that your hips are facing in the direction of the turn, rather than simply facing forward on the saddle. This helps soooo much on tight corners

k

never heard that one before - but thinking about it, it happen naturally with putting hard pressure on the outside pedal

 

[VamP]

That's like suggesting to someone who can't maintain an erection to try incest.

That's a hilarious analogy.

Off road riding is hugely beneficial in developing cornering skills, plus the speeds are generally lower so consequences of crashes are not as dire. In cyclocross you ride the same circuit a number of times, which gives you a chance to improve your line and bike position, and to experiment with different things. It's a race (but unlike in a road race you're less likely to be intimidated by the bunch) so your blood is up and you're more likely to try things that would normally scare you. The races are typically held on grassy fields with a minimum of dangerous crash sites. Cornering on loose and variable surfaces forces you to be extra aware of the surface you're on and the amount of traction available. Cyclocross is extremely accessible and cheap.

Oh and BTW countersteering is not something that the front wheel does all by itself. In fact, it's not something the front wheel does at all. And yes learning to countersteer is instrumental to cyclocross.

Now where's the erection/incest parallel?

 

[Smokin Joe]

Oh and BTW countersteering is not something that the front wheel does all by itself. In fact, it's not something the front wheel does at all. And yes learning to countersteer is instrumental to cyclocross.

Having once earned my living by spending all day riding an off-road motorcycle I can fully understand what you mean about cyclo cross and countersteering. Riding on mud or loose surfaces the front wheel often needs to be pointing in the "wrong" direction to maintain stability.

But on tarmac countersteering is something you need never have heard of. It is a natural function of a two wheel vehicle which is banked into a turn.

 

[VamP]

Having once earned my living by spending all day riding an off-road motorcycle I can fully understand what you mean about cyclo cross and countersteering. Riding on mud or loose surfaces the front wheel often needs to be pointing in the "wrong" direction to maintain stability.

But on tarmac countersteering is something you need never have heard of. It is a natural function of a two wheel vehicle which is banked into a turn.

I disagree.

Quote from the wiki article on bike handling mechanics

Countersteering
In order to initiate a turn and the necessary lean in the direction of that turn, a bike must momentarily steer in the opposite direction. This is often referred to as countersteering. With the front wheel now at a finite angle to the direction of motion, a lateral force is developed at the contact patch of the tire. This force creates a torque around the longitudinal (roll) axis of the bike. This torque causes the bike to roll in the opposite direction of the turn. Where there is no external influence, such as an opportune side wind to create the force necessary to lean the bike, countersteering is necessary to initiate a rapid turn.[32]
While the initial steer torque and steer angle are both opposite the desired turn direction, this may not be the case to maintain a steady-state turn. The sustained steer angle is usually in the same direction as the turn, but may remain opposite to the direction of the turn, especially at high speeds.[34] The sustained steer torque required to maintain that steer angle is usually opposite the turn direction.[35] The actual magnitude and orientation of both the sustained steer angle and sustained steer torque of a particular bike in a particular turn depend on forward speed, bike geometry, tire properties, and combined bike and rider mass distribution. Once in a turn, the radius can only be changed with an appropriate change in lean angle, and this can be accomplished by additional countersteering out of the turn to increase lean and decrease radius, then into the turn to decrease lean and increase radius. To exit the turn, the bike must again countersteer, momentarily steering more into the turn in order to decrease the radius, thus increasing inertial forces, and thereby decreasing the angle of lean.[36]

Clearly, to initiate and to exit a turn you do not need to understand that countersteering is what you are doing. It happens, as you say, automatically. However if you need to adjust the radius of your turn mid-turn, the safest way that will minimize the likelihood of a loss of traction at the front or rear, is to knowingly countersteer. For example, if you entered a blind bend on a descent at speed, the road is patchily damp, and increasingly so the further you go around the corner, and you also discover that the radius of the bend is different to what you thought it would be when you entered. If you don't know how to countersteer you'll either apply brakes at this point, or steer the bike. Either way, you are more likely to lose control than if you know how to countersteer, and have consciously practiced it.

 

[Smokin Joe]

VamP,

Rather than pushing the bars you just need to adjust your eyeline to the tighter radius you want. you will then automatically bank the bike onto that line with the added advantage of being able to see exactly where you are going.

I suspect we will have to agree to differ though.

 

[VamP]

VamP,

Rather than pushing the bars you just need to adjust your eyeline to the tighter radius you want. you will then automatically bank the bike onto that line with the added advantage of being able to see exactly where you are going.

I suspect we will have to agree to differ though.

But then you are doing it consciously. I agree end result is likely to be same, but you may need to shift your eyeline at same time (overtaking traffic, other riders if in a group etc.) The way I learned to countersteer is not to think about the bars either, but to adjust body lean angle relative to bike angle. This gives eyes freedom to track other things that you may need tracked.

I think we're agreeing to agree somewhat now

 

[Smokin Joe]

I think we're agreeing to agree somewhat now

Rather worrying when a thread degenerates into agreement, isn't it?

 

[VamP]

Rather worrying when a thread degenerates into agreement, isn't it?

It's not something we're geared up for around these parts

 

[oldroadman]

Mostly sound advice, and the comment about countersteer is interesting. The article pasted about deliberate countersteering looks like something written by an American, and more applicable to motos, where countersteer can be a positive action.
It does tend to happen automatically on a road bike, you simply relax on the bars and as the lean starts, countersteer happen without trying, then you drop into the corner. Getting the braking done on the straight is essential. One thing not mentioned, if the bend really tightens or you feel like it's running away from you, drop the inside knee a bit as well, and adjust where you look. Works (almost) every time.
A bike will lean a very long way before centrifugal force overcomes tyre grip.

Of course, all this really only applies when alone and/or on a descent, cornering within a peloton is another matter altogether, if you attempt the "fast line" people will get cut off and possibly fall, which will lead to plenty of abuse and eventual payback for your actions. Which might involve a bit of involuntary ditch visiting...

 

[asterix]

Off road riding is hugely beneficial in developing cornering skills, plus the speeds are generally lower so consequences of crashes are not as dire.

You are having a laugh! Last time I went off-road I thought I would descend this rather steep hill knowing that I had good brakes. Unfortunately the surface degenerated into small boulders that acted as ball-bearings under my wheel. The only way to control the bike was to let it roll (at enormous speed) down a carpet of gravel and hope I could steer around any large rocks that appeared.

When I saw the Olympic track I thought it was rather easy compared to real life conditions. I think that's why they had it in Essex so they could 'elfnsafetyise the whole thing by building it themselves. It's also my suspicion that cycle helmets really only developed thanks to off-road riding.

 

[oldroadman]

You are having a laugh! Last time I went off-road I thought I would descend this rather steep hill knowing that I had good brakes. Unfortunately the surface degenerated into small boulders that acted as ball-bearings under my wheel. The only way to control the bike was to let it roll (at enormous speed) down a carpet of gravel and hope I could steer around any large rocks that appeared.

When I saw the Olympic track I thought it was rather easy compared to real life conditions. I think that's why they had it in Essex so they could 'elfnsafetyise the whole thing by building it themselves. It's also my suspicion that cycle helmets really only developed thanks to off-road riding.[/q

1. I think a ride round at race speed might change your opinion.
2. Health and safety had little to do with the rocky descents, where Liam Kileen ended up with a tib and fib break plus displaced ankle that needed a lot of surgery, and months of recovery!
3. Helmets - off road - not a chance, look back in time and see the marketing ploy started by a moto helmet maker who was losing market share, decided to diversify, created a campaign turning cycling into a dangerous pursuit, and cashed in....

 

[asterix]

I'm sure you are right.