Ming the Merciless
There is no mercy
- Location
- Inside my skull
Confirmation bias in action
Dangerous or not?
- Thread starter nagden
- Start date
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johnblack
Veteran
- Location
- South Northamptonshire
But what if he was all in white and against a white van, or in red against a fire engine...........oh god we're all doomed.
Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
Remember - a killer car driver escaped prison for killing a cyclist recently while claiming the sun shining off the riders fluorescent may have dazzled him. He didn't offer any evidence or proof to support this claim, yet a jury of car drivers fell for it.
https://road.cc/content/news/delivery-driver-who-hit-cyclist-found-not-guilty-306185#:~:text=A
https://road.cc/content/news/delivery-driver-who-hit-cyclist-found-not-guilty-306185#:~:text=A
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Time Waster
Veteran
Strange photograph! There's a white cycle helmet floating in mid air. Not easy to see as it's white on a cloudy sky, but it's there floating.
I think there's cycling specific hi viz gilets that have a few tricks to account for issues described above. Yellow, orange and retro reflective areas in big block regions front and rear with the retroreflective strips around the body and over the shoulders.
I think we got one for our son when about 4yo but we never put it on him as we mostly rode off road with him or in countries with better cycle facilities and cycling culture.
If these don't suit you then there are PPE suppliers who do various multi colour block hi viz items that might be suitable.
Personally it's free choice matter but at the end of the day it only matters that you get home safely from your bike ride. How you do that is up to you. However if you don't come home safely one time perhaps it does no harm to reconsider your choices. Indeed it might be best to do that often as things change.
For example, roadworks in the wider area of my commute meant that big trucks started to use this inappropriate road as a rat run to get to the m6 going north. It got more than a little bit dangerous for cyclists imho. I got trapped between front and rear wheels of a trucks trailer once and very nearly got squished.
Hiviz might not have made any difference so I took an offroad route along a canal towpath for a bit until I felt it was safer again. You should always be assessing your own safety when cycling and consider changes when necessary, even if you oppose them for any reason. It's the end result of more time on this planet that matters.
PS safety changes can be cycling style, equipment, route, time of travel or anything. Make the changes that's best / appropriate for safety.
PedallingNowhereSlowly
Senior Member
I think it doesn't matter what you wear (or don't wear); if a driver looks where they are supposed to look they will see you. If they don't, they won't. No amount of hi-viz (or at night, retro-reflectives) is going to protect you from a distracted driver.
There's also this. ( - people who ride bikes while wearing helmets or hi-visibility vests perceived as less human than those who don't)
The obsession with hi-viz is victim blaming and it totally misses the point in terms of what is important around road safety.
There's also this. ( - people who ride bikes while wearing helmets or hi-visibility vests perceived as less human than those who don't)
The obsession with hi-viz is victim blaming and it totally misses the point in terms of what is important around road safety.
Totally this... If it's not that, it's not having a rear light (in bright daylight.)
They are all just leveraged as excuses by people who are driving without paying due care and attention.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
Straw man.
Nobody has suggested it might do.
The point here is not to absolve the drivers from blame. The point is that everbody makes mistakes. Let's try an make it as hard as possible for the driver to make the mistake of not seeing you.
No matter how you are dressed, it is the driver's fault (unless of course you make some sudden stupid manoeuvre in front of them), but we have to recognise that no matter whose fault it is, in any interaction between motor vehicle and cyclist, the cyclilst is going to come off worst.
Doing what we can to prevent the mistakes (by others) leading to those interactions is not "victim blaming", nor is it is absolving the others of blame. It is just saying "I don't want to die".
PedallingNowhereSlowly
Senior Member
I couldn't disagree more strongly.
The constant commentary around cyclists, what they are wearing or not wearing and successful counter-claims because of so-called negligence on the part of cyclists who don't, for example, wear helmets when it is not established that the wearing of a helmet would have prevented or reduced the level of injuy to the cylist is creating a culture where drivers are abdicating their responsibility.
My answer to this thread is-------------------I ride a trike with a flag. I ask how may people will run over a flat dead skunk in the road. My trike and I are bigger than a dead skunk.
Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
This is pretty much it.
People tend to drive into us because they're not paying attention and/or driving like eejuts, not because we're invisible.
We wouldn't be having a discussion about young women going out of a night in a short skirt without a Kryptonite chastity belt, so why is victim blaming acceptable when directed at cyclists? Even more bizarre that cyclists themselves partake of it.
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markemark
Über Member
Do you wear lights and hi viz when crossing the road? You argument applies equally to such situations.
Time Waster
Veteran
I would think that this culture is already in existence when motorists get a pass or injured cyclists get reduced compo due to no helmet or hiviz or lights in daylight.
If my statement is true then what can be done? Meet all the stupid criteria who's absence of allows the motorist to get away with it or you get reduced compo that should be due to you, perhaps? You're patently not going to make a distracted driver see you but you'll possibly get a fairer compo payout if you close the loopholes of things you should have on you or your bike to be "safe".
It's a bloody daft situation but let's be honest here, things are stacked against us and the metaphorical blind monkeys approach doesn't seem to work when the brown stuff hits the fan!
PedallingNowhereSlowly
Senior Member
For a start, we can desist from calling out other cyclists who have chosen not to wear hi viz.
When stupid decisions are made, because of motornormativity, we chan challenge them - openly on social media, on forums - but more so openly on social media or by drawing it to the attention of local media or even Guardian journalists/editors on X or whatever. We can also highlight it to the our elected representatives.
Better still, if we find ourselves in the situation of facing a negligence counter-claim, then we need to take all reasonable steps in defending it. If that happens to be in court, then one day a judge may look at the evidence their presented with and throw out the counter claim.
Which is why it is important to raise awareness and challenge on cycling flora and social media - so other cyclists are aware of the potential counter-claims and why they are baseless.
On a personal level, the choice of whether we wear helmets or dress like highlighter pencils is down to each and every one of us. I take a pragmatic approach and compromise usually wearing a helmet, high viz and retro reflective harness type thing rather than full tabbard/coat etc. and compliment that with a full suite of British Standards approved reflectors* and at least one standards approved rear light.
I haven't yet sourced a robust and affordable front light that is [a] bright enough and has a long enough runtime - but I can at least demonstrate knowledge of that to a court and the fact I angle my front light down / use the low settings on the road to avoid causing glare. Of course, I know that in an accident at night I could still face a counter claim - we can all only do our best.
Sometimes I go out on the bike without a helmet, preferring instead to wear a Sou'wester because it's pouring with rain and the helps keeps me dry. Other times, I'm not going far or I want to look/feel like a human being.
*My cross/road/gravel doesn't have wheel reflectors as I haven't found any that will fit; I've got a box of various wheel reflectors which I've tried and failed to fit
When stupid decisions are made, because of motornormativity, we chan challenge them - openly on social media, on forums - but more so openly on social media or by drawing it to the attention of local media or even Guardian journalists/editors on X or whatever. We can also highlight it to the our elected representatives.
Better still, if we find ourselves in the situation of facing a negligence counter-claim, then we need to take all reasonable steps in defending it. If that happens to be in court, then one day a judge may look at the evidence their presented with and throw out the counter claim.
Which is why it is important to raise awareness and challenge on cycling flora and social media - so other cyclists are aware of the potential counter-claims and why they are baseless.
On a personal level, the choice of whether we wear helmets or dress like highlighter pencils is down to each and every one of us. I take a pragmatic approach and compromise usually wearing a helmet, high viz and retro reflective harness type thing rather than full tabbard/coat etc. and compliment that with a full suite of British Standards approved reflectors* and at least one standards approved rear light.
I haven't yet sourced a robust and affordable front light that is [a] bright enough and has a long enough runtime - but I can at least demonstrate knowledge of that to a court and the fact I angle my front light down / use the low settings on the road to avoid causing glare. Of course, I know that in an accident at night I could still face a counter claim - we can all only do our best.
Sometimes I go out on the bike without a helmet, preferring instead to wear a Sou'wester because it's pouring with rain and the helps keeps me dry. Other times, I'm not going far or I want to look/feel like a human being.
*My cross/road/gravel doesn't have wheel reflectors as I haven't found any that will fit; I've got a box of various wheel reflectors which I've tried and failed to fit
matticus
Guru
I don't know how many times I will say this over my lifetime, but I accepted the responsibliity after winning £<mumble>thousand pound payout from my SMDISY driver's insurer:
THIS DOESN'T* HAPPEN !!!
I got some broken teeth and a serious-looking forehead gash, black-eye yada yada ... their lot tried on the Helmet thing, my lot laughed at them.
Case closed.
*(well ok, hardly ever - someone on the intnernet ONCE found an example of a small reduction, but hey, all outcomes are possible in civil court, and it probably depends what the starting offer was in the negotiations )
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