Cyclists don't count as road users, argues Chris Grayling transport secretary

[MontyVeda]

From my personal experience, they are classed as people.

The tribalism between cars and bikes just doesn't exist. Out of town some segregation exists but in the old centres its a free for all...in the literal sense.

There's plenty of segregation in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, plus the cars and bikes share the roads too. How come segregation here supposedly leads to tribalism (according @User and others) yet it doesn't on the other side of the North Sea?

Edit to add... folk like my dad who see a bike and think 'bloody cyclists'... they existed long before we had segregated cycle lanes.

 

[dim]

he's a nob.... not the sort of guy who I'd invite on a fishing trip or BBQ

he's looking for publicity and attention

the daffodil should be impeached and banned

 

[MontyVeda]

There are tripping points. If you get a society where most people are themselves a cyclist, or have close friends and family members who are cyclists, then the tribalism fades into the background.

I reckon the tribalism here is already in the background... it's just a got a big mouth.

 

[Lonestar]

The bloke is a dickhead.My bikes have been my mode of transport for many years keeping yet another car off of the road.

Didn't think much of this self important person before hand but I think even less of him now.

 

[steve292]

Stop the farking ratrunners ruining where we live.

Define a ratrunner.

I ride my bike a lot, but I also drive, as do many others. And along with many others I also pay tax, of which some goes to infrastructure, roads being an example of this. I will drive down any legal highway to get to my destination, whilst obeying the law, and being a considerate road user. When the people who live on that highway pay exclusivly for its upkeep, than i'll stop driving on them.
Before you get on your high horse, I will point out that yes, I do walk & I use public transport sometimes, & my eldest goes on the bus to school (Churchill 5 miles away).
I also live in Locking which is the very definition of a rat run.

 

[Lonestar]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...g-trend-fuelled-fat-cars-fat-drivers-aa-boss/

Cars like their owners are getting fatter.

Hope you don't mind me posting this here but it's my other mate involved.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

There's plenty of segregation in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, plus the cars and bikes share the roads too. How come segregation here supposedly leads to tribalism (according @User and others) yet it doesn't on the other side of the North Sea?

Edit to add... folk like my dad who see a bike and think 'bloody cyclists'... they existed long before we had segregated cycle lanes.

It might also be the case, running counter to the hard anti-segregation line, that installing decent cycling infrastructure actually integrates cycling into our roads, first for incorporating cycling into policy (notwithstanding road illiterate ministers) and secondly, by encouraging and increasing the number of cyclists there's a greater likelihood that drivers are also cyclists, and have a better understanding of cyclists' needs.

I have the feeling that the ''Get in the cycle lane'' drivers are simply the ''Get back in the gutter'' drivers responding to a change in infrastructure. It would be interesting to hear about drivers' responses to better cycling facilities in, say, the Netherlands. I'm sure there were knuckle-dragging Nederlanderthals back in the 70s and 80s. Anybody know about reports into this?

EDIT: I hadn't read until the end of the thread before posting and now see that this has partly been covered.

 

[theclaud]

Define a ratrunner.

A driver who uses residential streets as a through route or shortcut.

 

[Cycleops]

 

[atbman]

Looking more, I think both are sort-of right because the guy in the video shouldn't have been ticketed for leaving the lane to avoid a double-parked car making it unsafe. That website oversimplifies the law: 4-12(p) in this PDF. Basically the "when it is unsafe" includes loads of stuff - even when there's another bike in it... but some police seem to ticket any time you leave the lane, which is a mess and a nuisance. This is why I don't like relying on such exceptions and don't think any such law should exist.

If you want obnoxious anti-cycling laws, some states have one that when there's no bike lane, you must ride at the extreme right-hand edge of the road.

Not true AFAIK. The wording is almost always "as far to the right as practicable/practical. Drivers (and sometimes the police) have a tendency to interpret this as the meaning you describe. I've not come across any state with those words in its legislation

 

[mjr]

I also live in Locking which is the very definition of a rat run.

Pull the other one! Where's Locking on a rat run to? Are they getting January sales rushes to Hutton garden centre? Any hardcore ratrunners wanting a short cut into town will take the turn just after the motorway bridge (I think it's Elborough, but I've not checked the map) rather than go through Locking.

Also, Locking's got a ton of speed cushions and a one-way system, in part to discourage rat-running. It's probably not as effective as a good gate, but North Somerset's transport leadership is a bit wary of doing much that would curb the cars... probably because of reactions like this:

And along with many others I also pay tax, of which some goes to infrastructure, roads being an example of this. I will drive down any legal highway to get to my destination, whilst obeying the law, and being a considerate road user.

Well, yes, no-one says not. I'm just saying we should put some gates across three-quarters of the width of some rural single-track roads that would be good cycling routes were it not for motorists straying from the main roads because their sat nav thinks a 60-limit back road will save them 5 seconds. You can still drive down it to get to your destination, but you'll now have to obey the law and open and close the gate partway along.

When the people who live on that highway pay exclusivly for its upkeep, than i'll stop driving on them.

I've some sympathy for that view - I was part of a parish council that tried to lease a road so we could calm traffic on it - but to me, the bottom line is: if someone lives on a back road, it should remain a back road unless there's due process to change that. Back roads shouldn't become major routes willy-nilly just because some motorists are determined to leadfoot it along them and bleat about the unfairness of the people who live there wanting to continue to live without the threat of motorists injuring them or demolishing their homes. Heck, a minority of motorists manage to do that on purpose-designed major routes with all the safety features and visibility distances, so they'll definitely manage it on back roads that are turned into ad-hoc major routes.

People in towns are allowed to live on back streets without having the world racing through, thanks to blanket 30mph and increasingly 20mph zones and the road designs that come with them - including gates, in some cases - why shouldn't villagers be allowed to live on back roads?

 

[steve292]

Pull the other one! Where's Locking on a rat run to? Are they getting January sales rushes to Hutton garden centre? Any hardcore ratrunners wanting a short cut into town will take the turn just after the motorway bridge (I think it's Elborough, but I've not checked the map) rather than go through Locking

Live here do you?

Not if your coming off the motorway you won't. We get loads heading to the back of town in the evening trying to avoid the cluster f""k thats between flowerdown bridge and Winterstoke road. Not so many in the mornings as its not such an obvious way around. They go round the one way and down the Bury. That's not just a perception either, I live right on the main road at the garage end of the village & see it when riding or driving home in the rush hour.
What I'm getting at is that these people live in the area and IMO have reason to drive through to get to where they live and to blanket everyone with the title rat runner is a bit simplistic. .

I am not totally disagreeing with you, as you seem to miss the bit where I said "whilst obeying the law, and being a considerate road user." I totally agree with you about speed limits & the lowering of them in urban areas. The speed humps and the chicane things don't make a blind bit of difference. IMHO, yours may be different.

What does help in this area is as all the new development goes in the cycle paths are coming/ slowly being upgraded. I presume this is mandated in the planning permisssions, the council wouldn't do it by itself .There is a reluctance to get people to consider cycling as a alternative way of transport here and a dragging of heels to facilitate this as evidenced by the Tutshill rhyne saga, I don't often use them when out by myself except to avoid the dual carriageway, but when I'm tootling about with the kids I like the fact I can get all the way to the seafront, or into Worle without going onto the roads, except for the stretch from my house to the A371. & I say that from a position of not being a segregationist(?)

Enforcement of limits & laws with prosecution & punitive fines for endangering people, along with removal of licences & custodial sentences for those who injure and kill is the way forward, along with getting more people out of their cars. It wasn't until drink driving penalties became draconian and the offence had a social stigma attached to it that it started to decline.Then your "rat runner" turns into law abiding user of a form of transport going home .

 

[mjr]

Live here do you?

Yeah, I lived nearby for a while and still visit often.

Not if your coming off the motorway you won't. We get loads heading to the back of town in the evening trying to avoid the cluster f""k thats between flowerdown bridge and Winterstoke road. Not so many in the mornings as its not such an obvious way around. They go round the one way and down the Bury. That's not just a perception either, I live right on the main road at the garage end of the village & see it when riding or driving home in the rush hour.

Not only "not such an obvious" as almost never worthwhile. According to routing software, even starting from the Walnut Tree mini-roundabout at 4:50PM and sitting in queues all the way up Oldmixon Road and along Herluin Way, it's still quicker than driving the extra mile and a bit past you. The only time it might make sense is if the road is blocked and even then, it's quicker to take the road clipping the edge of Elborough and drive past Locking on the A road (although that does still mean driving through Hutton). So stick a gate at the bottom of the Bury and make it obvious to nobbers that farking up Locking for its residents isn't worth it.

What I'm getting at is that these people live in the area and IMO have reason to drive through to get to where they live and to blanket everyone with the title rat runner is a bit simplistic.

What I'm getting at is that people who live on/near the roads are fine driving through, but motorists who don't are ratrunners and should be encouraged more strongly to stick on major routes designed for the purpose.

I am not totally disagreeing with you, as you seem to miss the bit where I said "whilst obeying the law, and being a considerate road user." I totally agree with you about speed limits & the lowering of them in urban areas. The speed humps and the chicane things don't make a blind bit of difference. IMHO, yours may be different.

No, I didn't miss it and I don't think speed humps and the chicane things make much difference to them either (but they are nuisances for cycling and local residents) which is why I propose greater use of bollards (where motor access isn't desired except in emergencies) and gates to leave the roads free for safer users.

Enforcement of limits & laws with prosecution & punitive fines for endangering people, along with removal of licences & custodial sentences for those who injure and kill is the way forward, along with getting more people out of their cars.

Amen. And at the moment, neither of those happens in Somerset.