Cycling laws to be overhauled.

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byegad

Legendary Member
Location
NE England
If, dear reader, you want to kill someone, then choose a car as your weapon. The penalty, if you're unlucky enough to be caught, will be far less than if you use your. bare hands, a knife, gun or metal bar as your weapon. This sad fact reflects not only accidental deaths on the roads, but includes deliberate attempts to kill and injure.
 

Tin Pot

Guru
They covered that early on with a caller saying "but we're not discussing that now".

Fair enough. After all, on average they’ve only killed four or so people *every* day.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...uarterly-estimates-july-to-september-2017.pdf

But as they say, there are far more important matters to discuss like that one guy one time that killed someone. We must focus all our effort on eliminating this threat!
 

jarlrmai

Veteran
That wasn't the point of my question to be honest, I just want to know if you can be done when you didn't hurt anyone else only yourself or your car/roadway.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
That wasn't the point of my question to be honest, I just want to know if you can be done when you didn't hurt anyone else only yourself or your car/roadway.
Well, I believe you could be prosecuted when you didn't hurt anyone else only yourself or your car/roadway, but I struggle to think of many ways that you COULD hurt yourself without at least causing damage to someone else's property. Performing an emergency stop without a seatbelt or airbag, perhaps? Would that work? Or can someone think of other ways? Crashing into one's own house, I guess...
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
That wasn't the point of my question to be honest, I just want to know if you can be done when you didn't hurt anyone else only yourself or your car/roadway.

Short answer is yes.

Hacking around a roundabout at speed could be prosecuted as careless driving, even though the only 'damage' would be a bit of tyre wear.

Lots of police chases end without crashes or injury - stinger device, car breaks down, driver sees a chance to flee on foot, etc.

They are routinely prosecuted as dangerous driving.
 

jarlrmai

Veteran
I'm trying to see if the new laws if similar to current laws could be applied to a cyclist who in the eyes of a police officer is cycling carelessly/dangerously but hasn't actually caused any harm. For instance for cycling not in an optional cycle lane or taking the lane, doing a time trial etc i.e. sort of legal and/or recommended cycling that to some people might be considered dangerous or careless.

I guess it all comes down to what others have said, by what standard will careless/dangerous cycling be judged.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
[QUOTE 5347993, member: 9609"]woudn't want to get into an argument with somebody who could pedal a 1 tun bike[/QUOTE]
Done the half ton quad
Well, I believe you could be prosecuted when you didn't hurt anyone else only yourself or your car/roadway, but I struggle to think of many ways that you COULD hurt yourself without at least causing damage to someone else's property. Performing an emergency stop without a seatbelt or airbag, perhaps? Would that work? Or can someone think of other ways? Crashing into one's own house, I guess...
Over correcting, travelling too fast for conditions....
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
I'm trying to see if the new laws if similar to current laws could be applied to a cyclist who in the eyes of a police officer is cycling carelessly/dangerously but hasn't actually caused any harm. For instance for cycling not in an optional cycle lane or taking the lane, doing a time trial etc i.e. sort of legal and/or recommended cycling that to some people might be considered dangerous or careless.

I guess it all comes down to what others have said, by what standard will careless/dangerous cycling be judged.

The definition of careless and dangerous is well-established.

In summary, careless is a momentary lapse of attention, or driving that falls below the standard of a careful and competent driver.

Dangerous is driving 'far below' the standard of a careful and competent driver.

In our legal system the initial opinion of that will usually be made by a police officer who decides whether to start the charging process.

The judgment of that is made by magistrates if the case is tried by them, or by a jury if it goes to Crown Court.

Or, of course, by the driver if he convicts himself by pleading guilty.

There is subjectivity involved in making those judgments, but particularly in the more serious cases it's usually fairly clear.

If you flee from the police and barrel down your local high street at 60mph on the wrong side of the road, there isn't room for much argument against that being dangerous driving.
 

OneArmedBandit

Active Member
And the government does nothing except legislate for the far fewer instances of death by being struck by a cyclist.
There is already a lot of legislation for drivers who kill or injure others

Believe it or not although unwarranted any update to legislation would tend to benefit cyclists. If you look at the Charlie Aliston case if you are prosecuted under an 18th century law the wording tends to be much more vague and there are few statutory defences. This disadvantages the defendant.

The idea that huge numbers if cyclists will suddenly start getting pulled for trivial offences just isn't going to happen. There aren't the police resources, and even if there was why pull a cyclist when drivers are a much juicier fish.

If anything it gives a chance for greater targeting of motorists. If you're focussing on cyclists it logically makes sense to focus on close passes and inconsiderate overtakes as well. Two sides of the same coin
 

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
But who who decides what a careful and competent cyclist is?

As I've just explained, the police officer makes an initial assessment, the judgment will be by the magistrates or a jury at Crown Court.

Most people are drivers, so the copper/magistrates/jury bring their life experience to bear to help them decide what is careful and what is careless or dangerous.

Most of those people will not be cyclists, which could be seen as a handicap when judging the carefulness of a cyclist.

There is the definitions to help them, and road craft is road craft no matter what the mode of transport, but there will always be an element of subjectivity whether the judgment is being made of a car driver or bicycle rider.
 

Mike_P

Guru
Location
Harrogate
The whole thing seems very London centric, surprise, surprise. Needs to be some proper research of what and why rather than a knee jerk reaction to a one off tragic event. On 5 Live yesterday it was pointed out no one had been killed by a cyclist going through a red light so immediately is that a law that should be looked at. Some countries allow red lights to be passed in certain circumstances. How many cycle on pavements because its not safe to cycle on the road - certainly see many school children cycling to school on the pavement up hill alongside a very busy A road, if they were stopped from cycling on the pavement the chances are they would not cycle.
 
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