Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[suecsi]

Agree with marinyork - I only work 10 miles from home, and do a mixed mode commute with the Brompton. Inevitably, there can be numpties at both ends, but most of the time the difference can be seen between the home end - some dedicated cycle lanes, off and on road (absolutely minimum width), with the on pavement ones usually filled with broken glass and the paint and surface degraded. On road ones often have commercial vehicles parked in them between 8am-6pm.

Dominance of WVM and Courier vans associated with the airport, lots of HGVs. A straight, long former Roman Road with absolutely no attempt to curb speed (supposed to be 30 or 40mph) but it isn't unusual to have cars doing a good 50-60 regularly, and later at night it is a complete rat run with even higher speeds. Often beeped to 'get in the cycle lane/path' when there isn't one, or on a road which is plenty wide enough to pass, and I'm not using the on road cycle path as there is a bl**dy great pick up parked in it outside the steel works (which has a nasty habit of disposing of its metal shavings by the kerb).

At the work end, there is a network of cycle paths, both on road, on pavement, or on road but segregated by a kerb. There are also several quiet back roads, part of the NCN, so with a combination of these and the paths above, there isn't too much need to go on the main roads, in fact it can be slower. You will see experienced (and 99% of the time, seriously lycra clad) cyclists on the ring road, but they are fast enough to keep up with the traffic, which is the fast race track style common with one way ring roads. They're often on their way to Sigma Sport, over the bridge in Hampton Wick. Whilst the provision is nothing like the 'utopia' offered by the Dutch system (for fans of a segrationalist approach) I think the facilities are indicative of the fact the majority of the road system was rebuilt from scratch at the end of the 1980s when the main shopping area - formerly a through road - was pedestrianised - and the council seemed to have some sensible planners that took cycling into account.

Both ends of my commute are in London Boroughs.

 

[Red Light]

Part of the problem there is that even local authorities that have a history of high levels of cycle use don't necessarily understand the reasons why, or what they should be doing to maintain and build on it. Oxfordshire actually has a rather good cycling strategy, that sets out high standards, but rarely followed in practice, especially outside the city.

And Cambridge has by far the greatest modal share of cycling (30%-ish) in the UK despite doing many things seemingly designed to discourage cycling.

 

[dellzeqq]

...and that is the battle we must win, to educate drivers to recognise the extreme vulnerability of cyclists and peds as shared space road users and modify their behaviour accordingly. To accept second place behind human power. To accept that pedestrains have a right to cross the road in safety where ever they dman well please, not be herded into a glorified cattle pen several hundred metres out of their way to avoid inconvience to the petrol headed numpties. To accept that cyclists are their equals on the road. If education doesn't work then compulsion (aggresively enforced speed limits and overtake widths) must be introduced..

I'm not sure that education is going to do the trick. People put their brains on hold when they drive - that's not a criticism, it's just a recognition that driving isn't an intellectual activity. Cyclists (not all, but very many) think about what they're doing because they reckon that their survival depends on it, and because the exercise sharpens their perceptions. The driver/cyclist conversation is generally a pretty arid affair, because the interruption of the dozy state of driving semi-consciousness is unwelcome.

I reckon conditioning is a better bet. That happens over time, and involves a cultural shift founded on a change in real conditions. The biggest real condition is urban form, which, year by year, makes driving more congenial, and (for want of a better phrase) the design of streets is part of that.

Sadly all the progress we make in London is being undone by out-of-town Tesco stores. And, as you say, to instill in to the political landscape a different set of priorties.

 

[Fab Foodie]

On the cycling 'hostility' thing...

Mrs FF has recently returned to the cycling-fold ( ) and did her first 30 miler of her renaissance yesterday round the lanes of Oxford on a Charity ride. What really struck her was how appalling the attitudes of car-drivers were today. Hostile is a very good word, and considering she cut her cycling teeth commuting in Mitcham and Morden in the 80s, that's a sad indictment indeed.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I'm not sure that education is going to do the trick. People put their brains on hold when they drive - that's not a criticism, it's just a recognition that driving isn't an intellectual activity. Cyclists (not all, but very many) think about what they're doing because they reckon that their survival depends on it, and because the exercise sharpens their perceptions. The driver/cyclist conversation is generally a pretty arid affair, because the interruption of the dozy state of driving semi-consciousness is unwelcome.

I reckon conditioning is a better bet. That happens over time, and involves a cultural shift founded on a change in real conditions. The biggest real condition is urban form, which, year by year, makes driving more congenial, and (for want of a better phrase) the design of streets is part of that.

Sadly all the progress we make in London is being undone by out-of-town Tesco stores. And, as you say, to instill in to the political landscape a different set of priorties.

Doesn't the conditioning start with education/campaigining though? In my adult life time people, myself included, used to drink and drive extensively now it is generally frowned upon and exceptional. Seat belt wearing was for jessies and now 4 out of 5 wear them, smoking used to be near mandatory, now it is an extreme sport. Mind you, consumption of porn seems to be moving in the other direction if the sociologists are to be believed. Public campaigns seemed to have played a part in conditioning people to behaving differently....

....I'd contend a good many people ride bikes with the same dulled senses as they drive their tin boxes btw.

 

[dellzeqq]

I take your point. As you say, public campaigns do make a difference.

 

[Tommi]

don't get snippy! I mean simply that if you cycle from Streatham to Islington your chances of getting killed in the first mile are about the same as your chances of getting killed in the last mile. And, therefore, if your trip was from (say) Streatham to Brixton, your chances of getting killed would be a great deal less.

That's a remarkable assertion. I'd like to see the evidence to support that. With a full statistical analysis, thank you.

Considering the source figure both me and delizeqq used was "number of people killed in a year" I'm puzzled why you're expecting getting more detailed statistics out of it. With the averaged data I could calculate deaths per population, per km, and per trip. It does not tell me the number of deaths in Streatham, Islington, or Brixton, or on A-roads in one place vs. B-roads in another, or 8am January vs. 8pm July. It's all averaged.

If you want to calculate something different the sources are in the original post.

By your reasoning, a 5 mile journey is as safe as a 20 mile journey. That is manifestly untrue.

I never claimed such thing. I merely calculated the risk per average trip.

If you're interested in comparing the safety of a fixed 50km ride, then by all means use risk per distance since you'd be doing the same distance in both countries.

Personally I'd be more concerned about my daily commute and risk per trip seems more meaningful.

And of course it's all just an approximation, national average in this case. Feel free to come up with something more specific.

We are dealing with an accident rate: probability per mile traveled. There is a very good reason this measure is used: it removes the bias to short journeys.

I'd be interested in reading more in-depth explanation of pros and cons between different metrics. Would you happen to have a reference at hand?

Could you elaborate why you'd want to remove bias to short journeys if short journeys are representative?

 

[dellzeqq]

you don't do numbers, do you? McW and I simply pointed out the obvious - the risk you run on a long trip is greater than the risk you run on a short trip.

now how about the difficult stuff?

 

[Tommi]

I suspect the relative success in other countries is also down mainly to societal issues. But those are difficult to replicate so people try to grasp instead at tangible things like infrastructure even if there is no evidence for it. Their simplistic logical fallacy goes along the lines of "The Dutch cycle a lot; they have lots of segregated cycle tracks; the cycle tracks must be the reason they cycle a lot."

My unscientific observation is that one thing all the countries with notable (more than 5%) modal share have in common is significant amount of separated cycling infrastructure. Japan being the only exception I'm now aware of. In my mind there is suggestive correlation between the two, but as I haven't read any studies one way or the other I'm not making any claims.

 

[Tommi]

you don't do numbers, do you? McW simply pointed out the obvious - the risk you run on a long trip is greater than the risk you run on a short trip.

Yes, obviously. If your trip is shorter than average then the risk is less than average, if longer then more risk. If you want to adjust the average risk to closer match your (non-average) trips, be my guest. I don't see what impact that has on the national averages though.

now how about the difficult stuff?

I think I'm done with the numbers. Are you referring to the drawing exercise I've heard about?

 

[jonesy]

Tommi, if you want to make comparisons between different places, then what do the cities in the UK with the highest levels of cycling have in common? And what do the cities in the UK with the most extensive segregated cycle networks have in common?

 

[dellzeqq]

Yes, obviously. If your trip is shorter than average then the risk is less than average, if longer then more risk. If you want to adjust the average risk to closer match your (non-average) trips, be my guest. I don't see what impact that has on the national averages though.


I think I'm done with the numbers. Are you referring to the drawing exercise I've heard about?

stick to million miles or kilometres divided by deaths and you've got a conversation. Anything else is for the birds

we'll leave the drawing one till last. It's very difficult

try
- how is this infrastructure going to happen when almost nobody wants it?
- how is this infrastructure going to happen when absolutely nobody wants to pay for it?
- why would this infrastructure happen when £140million has been blown on LCN+?

 

[frank9755]

This has been a really interesting thread. Thanks Simon, Jonesy and all - you've clearly thought about this stuff an awful lot!

 

[Tommi]

Do you really, really think that the British, whatever they are, share a common culture and value system with the French? Or the Italians with the Germans? Or the Dutch with the Spanish.

Not share, but be more similar with each other than with Japan. Quickly glancing at http://en.wikipedia....Japanese_values, for example do you think Britain dealing with antisocial behaviour is more similar to Japan than western countries?

 

[dellzeqq]

Not share, but be more similar with each other than with Japan. Quickly glancing at http://en.wikipedia....Japanese_values, for example do you think Britain dealing with antisocial behaviour is more similar to Japan than western countries?

skip the stuff from Wikipedia - however wonderful it is, it will scarcely explain why cycling is twice as popular in southwest London as it is in southeast London.....

I'll leave you with the three questions above. I have to get up in the morning and ride across London. It's going to be a crisp, clear morning, and, as I go across the Thames with the woman I adore I'll count myself the luckiest chap alive. All the luckier for not having to deal with cycle paths