Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[Richard Mann]

I think we have to win the argument that people on bikes are a positive for non-users (including drivers and pedestrians), and the crux of the argument is about congestion. Obviously congestion is rather more prevalent in cities than in the countryside.

Once bikes have been re-accepted as legitimate transport in towns and cities, then we'll also find a way to provide for them outside towns & cities. I'd go for 30mph unless there's alternative provision.

 

[Richard Mann]

I'm happy to accept that there are different degrees, and that compromise is inevitable, but, in general, the complexity of city life and the use of public space, not to mention the perception of public space as public means that where cycling infrastructure exists in towns, it exists to the detriment of public space.

Which is one of the reasons why I think narrow cycle lanes (combined with one-each-way narrow traffic lanes) are actually quite a good solution. The cyclists need to slow down too, so pedestrians get a fair crack.

 

[Red Light]

I agree and disagree, any mass move to cycling would be an extremely long term thing and for future generations only, it would need to start in schools. Adult education, infrastructure changes, they take time, money and would be prone to limited take up and limited success. That's assuming you can get the £millions to build cycling infrastructure without first demonstrating the demand, or even with that evidence. If you're looking for short term gains then limiting non public transport vehicle use is going to be the most effective.

I genuinely have no idea as to whether the bicycle will move from minority to mainstream, I'd like to think it will but I can also accept that it may never happen. As I said I don't believe in 'build the cycling infrastructure and they will come', remove the private vehicle and see what pans out is more to my taste.

Tame the car, yes, but there have been some spectacular results through training in schools. It teaches the children how to cycle on the roads and if it engages the parents through cycling to school plans and weekend/evening school rides that include the family, it breaks down the barriers to cycling dramatically. At the moment we suffer from a generation of parents who do not cycle and therefore their children don't either.

 

[dellzeqq]

Yes, it's not going to be easy, and there is no one simple strategy. The Dutch have, of course, got things absolutely right, in that they have tamed the motor vehicle in their urban areas.

outside of the old cities, in the gridded 'splendour' of the Randstat they've not so much tamed the car as channeled it. Holland is a very (I hate the phrase, but can't think of a better one) 'car-friendly' place.

My completely unsubstantiated view is that Holland's democratic heritage has as much to do with the way they order things as anything else. I once had to compare the way the Dutch ran their prisons with the way we run ours - the comparison makes the cycle use thing look like small beer.

 

[MacB]

Yes, but I believe don't believe for one second that the "some people" we are talking about make up only around 1-2% of the UK population, which would be suggested by current statistics.

There is latent demand there, I am sure of it. But maybe I have been blinded by my own cycle-love.

I think we all suffer, in some way, from that blindness, it just seems to make so much sense to us, why can't everyone else see it? Without a bit of a reality check the tendency is to then slip towards cycling evangelicalism and that really doesn't do us any favours.

For example, my eldest hasn't cycled to school in ages, the middle son is patchy with his commuting, 2.5 miles for each of them, and the youngest now uses a scooter, a bit over a mile. The older two want to walk and chat with friends, they find cycling is unsociable and having to wheel the bike with friends is a pain. The youngest is in the middle of a localised scooter craze, nothing would persuade him that his little scooter is harder work than walking or cycling

I was amazed when the eldest, after two solid years, stopped riding his bike to school. When I asked him about it he gave the sociable reason and said, it was only 2.5 miles anyway. He starts 6th form in September and has made plans to cycle there as it's closer to 4 miles each way, he reckons that takes it into cycling range.

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

outside of the old cities, in the gridded 'splendour' of the Randstat they've not so much tamed the car as channeled it. Holland is a very (I hate the phrase, but can't think of a better one) 'car-friendly' place.

Aren't you forgetting about Woonerf? They exist outside of the old cities, in modern suburbs. Isn't this precisely the sort of thing you want?

 

[blockend]

In case anyone missed the point amidst nothing to see here hand waving and the substitution of bitterness as a synonym for cynicism of The Campaign, it's the complete inability of cyclists to unite. There is no organisation that claims to speak to cyclists as a group and until there is we're screwed and will continue in ideological point scoring and petty politics while the motorised world goes on its sweet way.

 

[dellzeqq]

Aren't you forgetting about Woonerf? They exist outside of the old cities, in modern suburbs. Isn't this precisely the sort of thing you want?

it's not (see reference to Radburn above), but I take your point. Flat surfaces - all good. And far, far better than the stuff of the same order we were building at the same time.

I was thinking more of this kind of thing........

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Yes, but I believe don't believe for one second that the "some people" we are talking about make up only around 1-2% of the UK population, which would be suggested by current statistics.

There is latent demand there, I am sure of it. But maybe I have been blinded by my own cycle-love.

I may need to engage your cycle-lurve in a spot of local campaigning (for an off road route) in the near future. Game?

 

[srw]

There is no organisation that claims to speak to cyclists as a group and until there is we're screwed and will continue in ideological point scoring and petty politics while the motorised world goes on its sweet way.

Why should there be? Why should a single organisation be able to unite triathletes, TT-ers, Audaxers, Sportiveurs, commuters, mountain bikers and just plain pootlers? All have different needs - and the same people can fall into different categories at different times.

And, in case you hadn't noticed, there is no organisation that claims to speak to motorists as a group. All the motorised lobby organisations (the AA, the LTDA, the long-distance truck drivers mob, the motorbike clubs) are very careful about their target audiences, and their interests frequently conflict.

 

[Mad at urage]

In case anyone missed the point amidst nothing to see here hand waving and the substitution of bitterness as a synonym for cynicism of The Campaign, it's the complete inability of cyclists to unite. There is no organisation that claims to speak to cyclists as a group and until there is we're screwed and will continue in ideological point scoring and petty politics while the motorised world goes on its sweet way.

Why on earth should all the different types of people who ride bicycles unite? They will be as diverse in their opinions as car drivers, probably more diverse than lorry drivers or train drivers (who at least have a similarity of experience and income).

Is the inability to unite all cyclists the source of your bitterness ?

 

[psmiffy]

Is the inability to unite all cyclists the source of your bitterness ?

or is it simply that most people do not want the same thing

 

[blockend]

Why should there be? Why should a single organisation be able to unite triathletes, TT-ers, Audaxers, Sportiveurs, commuters, mountain bikers and just plain pootlers? All have different needs - and the same people can fall into different categories at different times.

And, in case you hadn't noticed, there is no organisation that claims to speak to motorists as a group. All the motorised lobby organisations (the AA, the LTDA, the long-distance truck drivers mob, the motorbike clubs) are very careful about their target audiences, and their interests frequently conflict.

Given the diversity of motoring interests, the road lobby have been extraordinarily successful in having new highways built at tax payer's expense and a fairly open brief regarding speed limits, unless the driver concerned is exceptionally unlucky or stupid.
In a car you can kill a cyclist and most likely get off with a sound reprimand, shoot at one with an air rifle and happily deny everything and exercise all manner of hate crimes without compunction.

I'd say that was a pretty good outcome for drivers of whatever stripe.

 

[Mad at urage]

it's not (see reference to Radburn above), but I take your point. Flat surfaces - all good. And far, far better than the stuff of the same order we were building at the same time.

I was thinking more of this kind of thing........

What's that on the left? A car-park?

 

[Dan B]

I'm sure that taking cyclists off the road will fix all this bad driving behaviour