Cycle safety..... a holistic approach?

[david k]

dont think anyone here ha suggested that we shouldnt consider other aspects of cycling safety. considering helmets a benefit does not mean that all aspects of other safety can be ignored, that seems to be the stand point of those who dont see any or minimal beneift in helmets. Hence that argument should be put to bed

so back to the topic, i feel understanding of cyclists from drivers is poor and a lot can be done to improve

 

[Red Light]

[QUOTE 1487787"]
I would say yes, but I know of no crashes that I've heard of that have been the result of a poorly maintained bike. Having said that one should maintain sound bike maintenance.
[/quote]

Troy Parker was one. Jake Dady and Luke Gorse are others. Troy is still used as a poster child by BHIT in their quest for mandatory helmets. Troy had no working brakes on his BMX bike when he failed to stop and this is what the coroner said:

"The law is very strict when it comes to cars but there are no laws when it comes to bikes. It is up to owners to ensure bikes are safe. The consequences at not getting round to routine maintenance can, and in this case were, tragic and fatal."

BHIT and his parent blame his death on them not being forced by law to make him wear a helmet.

Jake Dady rode into a car on a mountain bike in a very similar accident with a non-working rear brake and faulty front brake.

Luke Gorse couldn't stop in time to avoid a lorry that had stopped to avoid a friends bike that had no brakes and was using his feet to stop. There seems to be a bit of a 14 Club forming.

 

[tigger]

Well you're on the right lines, but its not a game. It's not about what I say or You say and lets try and end with the propaganda of the victor. Its about establishing all the pros and all the cons of both wearing and not wearing helmets so that people who want to look into and discuss the subject can do so in an informed and rational manner. Is that not one of the great potentials of forums such as this?

Oh, that game. Let see.

I say

Wind in my hair
Less sweaty
More comfortable
Don't need to spend money on one
Don't need to find somewhere to keep it
Don't need to carry it around with me
Don't have to spend time washing sweat out of the pads and straps.
Don't trap bees and wasps through the vents
etc etc

You say

But those aren't really that much of problem considering the benefits

I say

What are the benefits

You say

Protection for your head

Segway to traditional argument on helmet benefits.

Right, done that, next?

 

[Red Light]

Well you're on the right lines, but its not a game. It's not about what I say or You say and lets try and end with the propaganda of the victor. Its about establishing all the pros and all the cons of both wearing and not wearing helmets so that people who want to look into and discuss the subject can do so in an informed and rational manner. Is that not one of the great potentials of forums such as this?

OK so list the benefits of helmets. You are not allowed to mention any safety benefits, just the ones not related to the disputed what happens to your head in an accident.

Somewhere to mount a helmet cam or light is about the only one I've heard. Do you have others?

 

[tigger]

OK so list the benefits of helmets. You are not allowed to mention any safety benefits, just the ones not related to the disputed what happens to your head in an accident.

Somewhere to mount a helmet cam or light is about the only one I've heard. Do you have others?

Well, given that helmets are first and foremost intended to be a safety device it seems a little pointless to me discussing them without it. Do you really mean this? With respect, were you just a little heated when you fired this off? Just seems to lack the thought of most of your other posts?

Assuming it is genuine, I don't think it warrants much time but...

Fashion accessory - some people like the look and can co-ordinate with their bikes/clothing
Aerodynamic benefits - TT helmets increase speed
Certain designs can keep you warm on cold / windy days
Other designs (are claimed!) to increase airflow in the right areas to cool your head on hot days
Somewhere to keep gloves, shades and other bits of bobs when sitting at a cafe/pub
Maybe keeps insects off

Probably loads more!!

 

[david k]

Well, given that helmets are first and foremost intended to be a safety device it seems a little pointless to me discussing them without it. Do you really mean this? With respect, were you just a little heated when you fired this off? Just seems to lack the thought of most of your other posts?

Assuming it is genuine, I don't think it warrants much time but...

Fashion accessory - some people like the look and can co-ordinate with their bikes/clothing
Aerodynamic benefits - TT helmets increase speed
Certain designs can keep you warm on cold / windy days
Other designs (are claimed!) to increase airflow in the right areas to cool your head on hot days
Somewhere to keep gloves, shades and other bits of bobs when sitting at a cafe/pub
Maybe keeps insects off

Probably loads more!!

lots of people wore caps before helmets so i presume people like something on their heads, keep their hair out of their eyes, the sun off etc, i suppose a safety helemt does this also?

 

[snorri]

Even taking the holistic approach the H word has come up 35 times in just 22 posts.

 

[Red Light]

Well, given that helmets are first and foremost intended to be a safety device it seems a little pointless to me discussing them without it. Do you really mean this? With respect, were you just a little heated when you fired this off? Just seems to lack the thought of most of your other posts?

Ah, its becoming a little clearer. So when you wrote earlier

Hence the intention of my new thread - I want to hear the positive reasoning behind why people don't want to wear helmets. Not the negative undermining of helmets per se.

Its subtle - but hopefully people understand the difference.

What you meant is people are only allowed to discuss how very good helmets are at protecting your head and anything that questions that is banned. I can see why that would be attractive to you.

 

[Red Light]

lots of people wore caps before helmets so i presume people like something on their heads, keep their hair out of their eyes, the sun off etc, i suppose a safety helemt does this also?

Caps are quite useful. They keep the sun out of your eyes, help evaporate the sweat or drip it well clear of your eyes and can be popped in a back pocket when not in use and thrown in the washing machine with the rest of the cycling gear to freshen them up. But most of the time I prefer the wind on my head and the cap in my back pocket.

 

[ufkacbln]

Troy Parker was one. Jake Dady and Luke Gorse are others. Troy is still used as a poster child by BHIT in their quest for mandatory helmets. Troy had no working brakes on his BMX bike when he failed to stop and this is what the coroner said:

"The law is very strict when it comes to cars but there are no laws when it comes to bikes. It is up to owners to ensure bikes are safe. The consequences at not getting round to routine maintenance can, and in this case were, tragic and fatal."

BHIT and his parent blame his death on them not being forced by law to make him wear a helmet.

Jake Dady rode into a car on a mountain bike in a very similar accident with a non-working rear brake and faulty front brake.

Luke Gorse couldn't stop in time to avoid a lorry that had stopped to avoid a friends bike that had no brakes and was using his feet to stop. There seems to be a bit of a 14 Club forming.

These are the classic examples that are being used to mislead.

Helmets in these cases are a pure and utter red herring, but accepted as the answer by these pro compulsion charities

 

[ufkacbln]

Well you're on the right lines, but its not a game. It's not about what I say or You say and lets try and end with the propaganda of the victor. Its about establishing all the pros and all the cons of both wearing and not wearing helmets so that people who want to look into and discuss the subject can do so in an informed and rational manner. Is that not one of the great potentials of forums such as this?

No it is not the case at all.

The whole point is that cyclists suffer injuries because they are inexperienced, untrained, cycle in a dangerous manner and have poorly (even dangerously) maintained bikes.

Or they suffer accidents because drivers are inexperienced, untrained, cycle in a dangerous manner and have poorly (even dangerously) maintained vehicles.

A helmet will only be effective (or not) when that accident occurs.

The whole approach should be to prevent that accident in the first place.

The fixation with helmets simply detracts from all these measures.

 

[tigger]

Yes thats your opinion. I know that. Tell me about holistic again - you did start this thread didn't you?

No it is not the case at all.

The whole point is that cyclists suffer injuries because they are inexperienced, untrained, cycle in a dangerous manner and have poorly (even dangerously) maintained bikes.

Or they suffer accidents because drivers are inexperienced, untrained, cycle in a dangerous manner and have poorly (even dangerously) maintained vehicles.

A helmet will only be effective (or not) when that accident occurs.

The whole approach should be to prevent that accident in the first place.

The fixation with helmets simply detracts from all these measures.

 

[tigger]

Ah, its becoming a little clearer. So when you wrote earlier



What you meant is people are only allowed to discuss how very good helmets are at protecting your head and anything that questions that is banned. I can see why that would be attractive to you.

No, once again your red mist clouds the judgement. I want to hear all the pros and cons. I haven't heard anything on thuis matter before. I'll find out about the other bits in time too...

 

[ufkacbln]

Yes thats your opinion. I know that. Tell me about holistic again - you did start this thread didn't you?

Holistic - dealing with the whole, as the sum of all its parts, not just concentrating on a single factor.

Looking at training, maintenance, road conditions, road design, vehicle safety, driver attitudes, Hi Viz, helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, body armour or any a thousand other factors

I know why it is uncomfortable to think beyond helmets, but that is the way any other activity would be managed. protective equipment should be the last resort when all other possibilities have failed

 

[tigger]

Ahhh... so we are back on track. Thank goodness for that.

Holistic - dealing with the whole, as the sum of all its parts, not just concentrating on a single factor.

Looking at training, maintenance, road conditions, road design, vehicle safety, driver attitudes, Hi Viz, helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, body armour or any a thousand other factors

I know why it is uncomfortable to think beyond helmets, but that is the way any other activity would be managed. protective equipment should be the last resort when all other possibilities have failed