corporal punishment - never did me any harm

[Angelfishsolo]

mmm how do we deal with a 13 year old rolling a fag and telling the teacher to f**k o** ? apart from that his reg disruption of the class ,is robbing other children from there rightfull education? i dont think that beating children is right but we should be able to deal robustly and firmly with this sort of behaviour, that mean physical, as he is under the mistaken imprestion that he is stronger and tougher than anyone else, and he knows bully and swearing work for him.i advocate nothing but am looking for sujestions.

As has been pointed out there is a huge difference between punishing a child with force and beating a child.
To compare the two is like comparing a telling off to mental abuse.
Those who think that no hand should be raised against a child would I assume do nothing to defend themselves if mugged by a group of teenagers. Am I right people?

 

[vernon]

mmm how do we deal with a 13 year old rolling a fag and telling the teacher to f**k o** ? apart from that his reg disruption of the class ,is robbing other children from there rightfull education? i dont think that beating children is right but we should be able to deal robustly and firmly with this sort of behaviour, that mean physical, as he is under the mistaken imprestion that he is stronger and tougher than anyone else, and he knows bully and swearing work for him.i advocate nothing but am looking for sujestions.

I think that you find that the behaviour that you cite is dealt with in most schools. No child in my school is ever under the impression that they are harder that everyone else especially if he/she is attempting to out face my twenty four stone impassive frame before being escorted to the internal exclusion centre.

A skim of recent quality newspapers or The Times Educational Supplement will reveal that the 'power base' is being moved in favour of the teachers and, more importantly, Michael Gove is being very vocal and public about his views upon giving more power to the teachers when dealing with 'reluctant learners.'

The situation is in hand.

 

[MontyVeda]

The cane was in use at my senior school, although i never got it and didn't really know anybody in my class who did.

I assumed one would have to be 'really bad' for 'Whacker' Wearing to resort to it so it did present a line of sorts one wouldn't want to cross. I guess by the time it was abolished in schools there was only a minority of schools left which still used it... which (if true) says a lot for it's effectiveness.

But these days we couldn't revert back to it. Parents who don't believe in smacking their kids aren't going allow a teacher to. These days I'd also eye any teacher with suspicion who volaunteered themselves as the new 'Whacker'.

 

[sunnyjim]

My teachers would be gob smacked to find that I'd become a teacher as I was a troublesome pupil in school who, having been caned twice, became wilier and managed to get caned by proxy for the last two years of my school career i.e. I never got caught and omerta afforded me a lot of protection while my co-conspirators took the beatings,

My first caning was a consequence of setting fire to the drawer contents of my desk in French, an act that was an unintended consequence of a coaching session in making saltpetre fuses.

The second beating was punishment for me coating the banisters of two, three story staircases, with duplicating ink which resulted in four hundred plus kids getting purple hands whose purpleness transferred to everything that they touched.


On both occasions my immediate thoughts post caning were: "It was worth it"


I find that reading Vogon poetry to naughty pupils to be far more effective than physical punishments.

Ahh. - upholding the very finest traditions of British schoolboy-ism. I only hope the current generation will carry on.

 

[dellzeqq]

As has been pointed out there is a huge difference between punishing a child with force and beating a child.
To compare the two is like comparing a telling off to mental abuse.
Those who think that no hand should be raised against a child would I assume do nothing to defend themselves if mugged by a group of teenagers. Am I right people?

none of this makes sense at all. Hitting is hitting is hitting. You can call it punishment, but it's still hitting somebody. If you're inn favour of hitting people, well, that's up to you. And self-defence is not in the least like hitting somebody when you have it in your power to do so.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

none of this makes sense at all. Hitting is hitting is hitting. You can call it punishment, but it's still hitting somebody. If you're inn favour of hitting people, well, that's up to you. And self-defence is not in the least like hitting somebody when you have it in your power to do so.

But as you say, hitting is hitting is hitting. If a teenage child strikes a teacher for eg that teacher has no right to defend themself. The child learns he/she is untouchable. I would rather see the teacher be allowed to use reasonable force to defend themself, the child caned and then returned to lessons. If they continue to disrupt the class send them to an exclusion zone and encourage them to continue learning (as you can't force a child to learn).

As a parent how would any of you feel if your child was under achieving because a rouge element in the class were not being controled

 

[Yellow Fang]

My father tells a story of when he used to be a school teacher in Leeds during the early 70s. They ran out of canes and behaviour deteriorated for a while. All the kids looked on in silence though when my father walked through the playground with a new bunch of canes under his arm - just to discover that the next time he went to use one, someone had broken into the store cupboard and broken them all.

 

[dellzeqq]

But as you say, hitting is hitting is hitting. If a teenage child strikes a teacher for eg that teacher has no right to defend themself. The child learns he/she is untouchable. I would rather see the teacher be allowed to use reasonable force to defend themself, the child caned and then returned to lessons. If they continue to disrupt the class send them to an exclusion zone and encourage them to continue learning (as you can't force a child to learn).

As a parent how would any of you feel if your child was under achieving because a rouge element in the class were not being controled

make-up in class! Thrash the blighters!

As a parent I might think all kinds of things, but, to repeat, there is a world of difference between a teacher using reasonable force to defend his or herself on the one hand, and corporal punishment on the other.

And, actually, if I had heard that a child had been caned in my daughter's school, I'd have had them out of there!

 

[Zoiders]

But is this actually true?

I often hear similar complaints, that oh teachers can't stop kids now the kids are wise and they have 'rights' and if a teacher tries to stop them they'll get sued.

As far as I am aware, a teacher is perfectly within their rights to physically restrain a pupil who is out of control.

The press is hardly full of stories of teachers getting in trouble for stopping a kid punching them. The only stories I recall is one a few years back where a teacher snapped and went ape and beat the hell out of a defenceless pupil.

It should never have reached the stage where a child is so emboldened that they can strike a teacher with a fist.

Restraint is a lovely idea on paper but it does not prevent assault as they just know they can keep hitting people and the worst that can happen is that someone may grab hold of them. There is a lengthening list of teachers who have had to leave the profession due to assaults and serious injury by "children", some of whom are as large and aggressive as an adult.

It's very similar to being assaulted by a woman, some men won't hit them back even though women are perfectly capable of inflicting injury - simple restraint doesn't stop the assault and the guy ends up in hospital.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

It should never have reached the stage where a child is so emboldened that they can strike a teacher with a fist.

Restraint is a lovely idea on paper but it does not prevent assault as they just know they can keep hitting people and the worst that can happen is that someone may grab hold of them. There is a lengthening list of teachers who have have had to leave the profession due to assaults and serious injury by "children", some of whom are as large and aggressive as an adult.

It's very similar to being assaulted by a woman, some men won't hit them back even though women are perfectly capable of inflicting injury - simple restraint doesn't stop the assault and the guy ends up in hospital.

On this we are in complete agreement. As far as I can tell the same people who brought about this state of affairs changed the Police from a Force to a Service.

 

[Crackle]

I 'got the belt' (from one of these http://www.johndick-...awse_online.htm ) a few times. I did learn that the boss is the boss when of an age when rational argument wouldn't have worked.

The pantomime in front of the class was part of the punishment and maybe an introduction to the idea of justice being seen to be done, and done swiftly. Sometimes you were sent along the corridor to ask Mr X if Mrs Y could please borrow his tawse. Small female teachers lacking sufficient strength to make an impact would sometimes ask the Depute Rector ( rector = head teacher in these parts) to do the deed for them.

Belts were kept ready for action either in a specific drawer in a form teacher's desk, or down one of the long droopy sleeve things of their gowns if they were mobile. One music teacher I had kept it over his left shoulder under his gown, whipping it out and administering the hit almost at a run. I now listen to Radio 3 with respect....

Two strokes on the palms (both hands held out, one above the other) were the normal dose for average badness. It hurt for an hour or so, then was forgotten. I'm now a reasonably normal (by cc standards anyway...) adult, & I don't believe it did me any permanent harm. Teachers who administered it fairly were not particularly resented IME, although the few apparently sadistic ones were well known (one of the worst IIRC was a female RE teacher). Maybe this was the way we were supposed to learn the difference between fear and respect.

So to answer the OP, nothing wrong with bringing it back IMO. And not modernised - basic, easily understood action administered quickly without complication. The one improvement over the 1960s would be ensuring each incident was recorded and justified outside the classroom.

You were a product of your time Jim, as was I. You can't go back, things move on for the better. You only have to look at a school which has pulled its bootstrings up, without recourse to Corporal Punishment. How you deal with disruptive kids has changed drastically. How well it works is dependent on the school. Failings schools have issues beyond their intake.

 

[vernon]

But as you say, hitting is hitting is hitting. If a teenage child strikes a teacher for eg that teacher has no right to defend themself.

You are so very wrong on this. Teachers have always had the right to use reasonable force to protect themselves and others. The striking of teachers by pupils is rare.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

You are so very wrong on this. Teachers have always had the right to use reasonable force to protect themselves and others. The striking of teachers by pupils is rare.

Interesting as I am saying what I have been told by teachers. Also if the figures are to be believed we have record numbers of teachers leaving the profession because of bullying from pupils.


Not just word of mouth either.

Attacks on teachers in schools in Wales hit a five-year high last year, according to figures obtained by BBC Wales.

Between 2005 and 2010, nearly 4,000 staff were subjected to abuse, with some suffering broken bones.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11476605

More than 170 pupils have been suspended or expelled from school for attacking staff over the last three years.

http://menmedia.co.uk/rochdaleobserver/news/s/1202645_more_than_170_pupil_attacks_on_school_staff




FIGURES obtained by The Oxford Times show there have been more than 900 student attacks on teachers in Oxfordshire's schools in the past four years.

http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/yourtown/oxford/700867.More_than_900_pupil_attacks_on_teachers/

Staff refused to teach 16 troublemakers after they were allowed to remain in lessons despite brandishing knives, attacking teachers and fellow pupils and making malicious allegations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...-teach-yob-pupils-after-attacks-on-staff.html





Still want to claim such events are rare?

 

[atbman]

How, exactly, do you inflict corporal punishment on a 6' tall 14-year old?

And how, exactly, would you morally justify big people hitting smaller people to get them to do what you want?

 

[Angelfishsolo]

How, exactly, do you inflict corporal punishment on a 6' tall 14-year old?

And how, exactly, would you morally justify big people hitting smaller people to get them to do what you want?

How do you justify a person earning >£1000000 a year employing somebody for NMW?

If rational argument does not work then you either punish the child and allow then to return to the classrooms or expel them and let them loose the possibility of an eduction. Which is better in the long run. We say that this does not happen to adults but it does. Cause trouble in the streets, resist arrest and you will get hurt. Maybe not with a punch but with a baton, CS gas or simply shear weight of numbers to subdue you.

As for the 6' 14 year old he would have been a dwarf compared to some of my old teachers I assure you!