Coronavirus outbreak

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Location
London
In addition to Italy lifting travel restrictions it appears that from today you can also get haircuts there.
Wouldn't be surprised to see some folks combining a trip/break with a much needed trim.
At the mo you will of course have to isolate for 14 days on returning so a smidgen more savagery in the chop might be an idea so that you can grow into your new look.

<edited for typo>
 
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PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
Lord Sumption on BBC news being interviewed he's a total loon. End lock down government has no longer need of it , NHS has beds not over whelmed ,only effects old with underlaying conditions, they'd have died anyway ect, ect
To think he was till 2018 one of Justices of the Supreme Court. Every time the BBC let him on he talk crap why they let him get away with it lord knows.

This, the first para of his article in the Sunday Times, summarises the nature of his wider thesis:

The lesson of Covid-19 is brutally simple and applies generally to public regulation. Free people make mistakes and willingly take risks. If we hold politicians responsible for everything that goes wrong, they will take away our liberty so that nothing can go wrong. They will do this not for our protection against risk, but for their own protection against criticism.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six...isters-and-stop-covering-your-backs-kvwrnk9ww
 

Rocky

Hello decadence
This, the first para of his article in the Sunday Times, summarises the nature of his wider thesis:

The lesson of Covid-19 is brutally simple and applies generally to public regulation. Free people make mistakes and willingly take risks. If we hold politicians responsible for everything that goes wrong, they will take away our liberty so that nothing can go wrong. They will do this not for our protection against risk, but for their own protection against criticism.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/past-six...isters-and-stop-covering-your-backs-kvwrnk9ww
Interesting but I can't help but worry about those 'free people' who may be at risk because of other free people's mistakes. As John Rawls put it In A Theory of Justice where he argued for the most extensive basic liberty for individuals but it must be compatible with similar liberty for others. Is it fair on our health care professionals that they get infected, and possibly die, because they are treating people who ignored the risks of Covid? Is it fair that someone who needs an ICU bed, through no fault of their own, can't get one because risk taking individuals coming into hospital with Covid?

Sumption starts with a very different view of society and the protection that government should offer to me. I think government is there to protect the vulnerable, the poor and the old. I suspect until he finds himself in one of those groups, he'll stick to his libertarian views.
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
Interesting but I can't help but worry about those 'free people' who may be at risk because of other free people's mistakes. As John Rawls put it In A Theory of Justice where he argued for the most extensive basic liberty for individuals but it must be compatible with similar liberty for others. Is it fair on our health care professionals that they get infected, and possibly die, because they are treating people who ignored the risks of Covid? Is it fair that someone who needs an ICU bed, through no fault of their own, can't get one because risk taking individuals coming into hospital with Covid?

Sumption starts with a very different view of society and the protection that government should offer to me. I think government is there to protect the vulnerable, the poor and the old. I suspect until he finds himself in one of those groups, he'll stick to his libertarian views.

I agree, but take away the Covid reference and we have:

Free people make mistakes and willingly take risks. If we hold politicians responsible for everything that goes wrong, they will take away our liberty so that nothing can go wrong. They will do this not for our protection against risk, but for their own protection against criticism.

Which poses interesting questions about our relationship with politicians in general.
 

Rocky

Hello decadence
I agree, but take away the Covid reference and we have:

Free people make mistakes and willingly take risks. If we hold politicians responsible for everything that goes wrong, they will take away our liberty so that nothing can go wrong. They will do this not for our protection against risk, but for their own protection against criticism.

Which poses interesting questions about our relationship with politicians in general.
Again, I’m not sure I agree with Sumption. A government which takes away too much freedom won’t be free from criticism. They might not be criticised about the public suffering the impact of risk taking but they will be criticised for being a ‘nanny state’. Like everything, there is a balance.
 

Rocky

Hello decadence
I agree, but take away the Covid reference and we have:

Free people make mistakes and willingly take risks. If we hold politicians responsible for everything that goes wrong, they will take away our liberty so that nothing can go wrong. They will do this not for our protection against risk, but for their own protection against criticism.

Which poses interesting questions about our relationship with politicians in general.
I also meant to say that it's an interesting debate - thanks for posting. It raises all sorts of questions about the role of government and whether it should be more interventionist/protectionist during risky times. I also wonder whether there is a cultural/generational aspect to this, with different groups being more accepting of a nanny state. At the moment, it feels like the population of the UK are, by and large, accepting of the current approach. But how long this will last, I'm not sure.
 

a.twiddler

Veteran
Interesting but I can't help but worry about those 'free people' who may be at risk because of other free people's mistakes. As John Rawls put it In A Theory of Justice where he argued for the most extensive basic liberty for individuals but it must be compatible with similar liberty for others. Is it fair on our health care professionals that they get infected, and possibly die, because they are treating people who ignored the risks of Covid? Is it fair that someone who needs an ICU bed, through no fault of their own, can't get one because risk taking individuals coming into hospital with Covid?

Sumption starts with a very different view of society and the protection that government should offer to me. I think government is there to protect the vulnerable, the poor and the old. I suspect until he finds himself in one of those groups, he'll stick to his libertarian views.
You beat me to it. Despite all the safeguards an allegedly civilised society has in place to protect the vulnerable and disadvantaged we are really in the following situation.

a)Do not go to work in order to protect your health and that of others, risk failing to pay your bills, becoming impoverished, maybe homeless, and increase your risk of dying. b)Go to work, risk your health and that of others, pay your bills, remain solvent, keep your home, risk becoming ill, infecting others and if you are in the at risk group (which nobody has fully identified yet -a small number of young healthy people will still die) you may die. c) Pretend nothing is happening. Live the life of denial. You might live. You might die. You might cause others to die. d) Choose your parents carefully. If you can insulate yourselves from the common masses with your wealth you have a better chance of escaping infection and its risks. That'll be about 2% of the population then.

At some stage economic pressure will be greater than the need for self preservation, at least for some, and that is where the risk of a second wave comes in. A government composed of millionaires being pressured by their millionaire friends to preserve their millionaire interests may overwhelm the need to pay attention to scientific advice.

It's Hobson's Choice isn't it. To paraphrase Tom73, the COVID-19 virus does not discriminate.

You can't anthropomorphise it, it has no feelings, it has no political agenda. It exists to propagate itself. 20% of common colds are caused by Coronaviruses which have mutated so that they can infect the greatest number of hosts without killing them thus ensuring their continuing existence. It is not in a virus's evolutionary interest to kill its host before it can spread. The trend for such viruses is to become less virulent and it may be that in the absence of an effective vaccine this is the best hope, at least in the short term. Of course, this particular virus might be the exception that proves the rule. I hope not.
 

tom73

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Within social science the relationship of state and the people is a long held point of debate together with how it's legitimacy to govern is challenged. As with many things at the moment it's exposed aspects of social worlds which most never even think about.
The level of interventionist role the state is having to take is to a whole new set of rules outside political norms.
Bringing it's own set of challengers, equally many now face having to turn to government for help in ways they never thought they would.
The same people who never understood why the state provided similar interventions for others.
So it's no wonder some look back by fighting to maintain the only held view they ever had.
They want the sate to keep them safe as the current treat is way too big for them to handle but equally they don't want new political norms to be one of interventions for the good of the many.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
That was quick. Tim Spector, King's College, was arguing for this pretty forcefully on BBC Radio 4 this morning. A few hours later and PHE have responded. Which, of course, begs the question why they hadn't updated the symptom list earlier.
Yeah, very quick, it's only about two months since loss of smell was being added to medical warnings abroad. I wonder when PHE will add the bruised feet? Some time in June?
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/coronavirus-outbreak.256913/page-298#post-5924729
 

oldwheels

Legendary Member
Location
Isle of Mull
Loss of taste or smell has now need added to the UK list of things to look out for.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52704417
Lack of taste or smell was mentioned in a leaflet I got right at the start of this lockdown. It came from the Scottish Government but I have lost any sense of time so cannot remember even an approximate date. It was also in an information panel on our local farcebook right at the start weeks or even months ago.
 

tom73

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Lack of taste or smell was mentioned in a leaflet I got right at the start of this lockdown. It came from the Scottish Government but I have lost any sense of time so cannot remember even an approximate date. It was also in an information panel on our local farcebook right at the start weeks or even months ago.
Funny that as it only was formerly added today at the FM briefing.
Loss of tease and smell has been around some time but as with so much about the virus knowing what's useful and not can only be done over time.
 

oldwheels

Legendary Member
Location
Isle of Mull
Funny that as it only was formerly added today at the FM briefing.
Loss of tease and smell has been around some time but as with so much about the virus knowing what's useful and not can only be done over time.
I certainly got the info. regarding taste and smell some time ago. The leaflet has been dumped and the Facebook page is no doubt somewhere but at this remove I am unlikely to find it. The information about taste and smell may just be formally announced but has certainly been known about for some considerable time. I have never seen any live briefings but get them sometime later from other media.
 

tom73

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
So now anyone over 5 with signs can have a test. Testing set up can't even get the basics right without them.
It's just numbers game, the more they test it won't magically fix the problems.
 

SpokeyDokey

68, & my GP says I will officially be old at 70!
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