Compulsory Lights & Hi-viz.

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Slick

Guru
Seeing and paying attention to something are quite different. ADHD being an extreme example. It’s not that someone didn’t see something, it’s that their brain didn’t consider it important enough to pay attention to and it got discarded in rapid order to concentrate on something else.

Think about the person doing something on their phone who you ask to do something. Later, when you ask why they didn’t do the something you asked, they say you never asked. You say you did, and they say they didn’t hear you. They did hear you, but weren’t listening. A crucial difference and the same can happen with sight.

Yeah I get that, but I'm not entirely sure its the whole picture.

Another example is from a number of years ago, where my sister inlaw pulled out from a side road directly into oncoming traffic on the A9 which is a dual carriageway. She was very lucky as there were children in the car with her. She got quite upset as she regaled the story weeks later, and I had to comfort her a bit by explaining my theory that people look, but do not see. I really don't think she saw the oncoming traffic, I think she was on automatic pilot where she has pulled out that road a thousand times and each time was clear, but obviously that time it wasn't. I don't think her brain saw the oncoming traffic and discarded it, but I do accept it can happen as you describe.
 

I like Skol

A Minging Manc...
As she pulled out the junction I just caught sight of a cyclist in dark clothing and no lights
I've bolded the key part of your story.

@Jameshow I think you should rethink your hi-viz strategy.

On the face of it, hi-viz might seem like a step in the right direction, but once you remove the baseless "it's obvious/common sense ,init?" you are left with reality which doesn't seem to back it up.

Above are suggestions that the stats don't support hi-viz usage.

I too have faced this conundrum, as I commute in a busy urban environment and wish to avoid being squished by other road users.
I've tried the hi-viz option and found it useless with no apparent difference between wearing normal, dark cycle gear Vs hi-viz.
I've also done my own experimentation when I again wanted to revisit the hi-viz solution. I ordered a few of the popular (and not cheap) hi-viz cycle jackets available at the time. Wearing each of these jackets I sat my wife in her modern saloon car on our street lit, but quite dark, street with the headlights on while I moved around in front of the vehicle with either driving lights or full beam on.

She wasn't very impressed. This wasn't much help to me so we swapped places and suddenly I could see why she wasn't impressed, and you can easily repeat this result yourself if you have access to a car, an assistant and a quiet street to experiment on.

Hi-viz usually consists of two elements. First is the dayglo material, the bright punchy colours that catch your eye as the shades really pop in bright daylight. The clue is in the name, dayglo, they appear to glow in daylight. The second element is the retro-reflective strips/patches/decals that are no big thing in daylight, but in the dark their ability to reflect light directly back towards the light source can make them light up like a headlight.
Unfortunately, reality plays a cruel trick on both these systems.
Firstly, dayglo at night is just a pale colour like any other pale colour. Without the UV of good daylight it just fades into the washed out greyness of the background that results from Street lighting, billboards, shop window lighting, car headlights etc
Retro-reflectives are good though, they return direct light back towards the source, so provided the driver is close to the source they can be as dazzlingly bright as the light shining on them because the driver is usually sat almost directly behind the headlights. They don't need daylight to work (In fact, they don't work in daylight). However, there is a huge flaw! In an urban situation most cars are only using the dipped driving lights, quite correctly, to avoid blinding oncoming drivers. This dipped beam light pattern, if correctly set, will focus the light beam below approx knee hight and towards the ground. This doesn't hit the reflectives on a jacket and in practice don't become highlighted to the driver. Headlights on non-dipped full beam are much better, but if you wander to either side of the beam you soon lose the effect and again fade into the general tapestry of the view. Reflectives really only work if low down (ankle strips) and directly in front of a vehicles lights.

So, dayglo is good during the day. Reflectives are good at night in one direction, provided the light source and driver are in line with the reflective.

What happens at night in an urban environ is that your dayglo just washes out to pale grey, the same as all the street furniture, tarmac, pavements, fences, bushes, cars. Your reflectives are also rendered useless unless directly in the light beam, so actually work as you want them to for a tiny fraction of the time and in limited circumstances.

Sorry for the long winded post but it takes some explaining. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me.
 

DRM

Guru
Location
West Yorks
https://skybrary.aero/articles/visual-scanning-technique
I try to use the above technique , & regularly check both mirrors, when driving, it's amazing how many people you see driving on Dual Carriageways/Motorways with their gaze fixed dead ahead, that then will indicate and pull out in front of you to overtake a slower vehicle, you know full well that your presence hasn't registered at all, even if they look they don't look properly, i think this why a lot of SMIDSY incidents occur as people see a car further away, but the cyclist who is nearer doesn't register in their brain, they can pull out safely before the car, but it's the poor cyclist that get's run in to.
 

T.M.H.N.E.T

Rainbows aren't just for world champions
Location
Northern Ireland
I've bolded the key part of your story.

@Jameshow I think you should rethink your hi-viz strategy.

On the face of it, hi-viz might seem like a step in the right direction, but once you remove the baseless "it's obvious/common sense ,init?" you are left with reality which doesn't seem to back it up.

Above are suggestions that the stats don't support hi-viz usage.

I too have faced this conundrum, as I commute in a busy urban environment and wish to avoid being squished by other road users.
I've tried the hi-viz option and found it useless with no apparent difference between wearing normal, dark cycle gear Vs hi-viz.
I've also done my own experimentation when I again wanted to revisit the hi-viz solution. I ordered a few of the popular (and not cheap) hi-viz cycle jackets available at the time. Wearing each of these jackets I sat my wife in her modern saloon car on our street lit, but quite dark, street with the headlights on while I moved around in front of the vehicle with either driving lights or full beam on.

She wasn't very impressed. This wasn't much help to me so we swapped places and suddenly I could see why she wasn't impressed, and you can easily repeat this result yourself if you have access to a car, an assistant and a quiet street to experiment on.

Hi-viz usually consists of two elements. First is the dayglo material, the bright punchy colours that catch your eye as the shades really pop in bright daylight. The clue is in the name, dayglo, they appear to glow in daylight. The second element is the retro-reflective strips/patches/decals that are no big thing in daylight, but in the dark their ability to reflect light directly back towards the light source can make them light up like a headlight.
Unfortunately, reality plays a cruel trick on both these systems.
Firstly, dayglo at night is just a pale colour like any other pale colour. Without the UV of good daylight it just fades into the washed out greyness of the background that results from Street lighting, billboards, shop window lighting, car headlights etc
Retro-reflectives are good though, they return direct light back towards the source, so provided the driver is close to the source they can be as dazzlingly bright as the light shining on them because the driver is usually sat almost directly behind the headlights. They don't need daylight to work (In fact, they don't work in daylight). However, there is a huge flaw! In an urban situation most cars are only using the dipped driving lights, quite correctly, to avoid blinding oncoming drivers. This dipped beam light pattern, if correctly set, will focus the light beam below approx knee hight and towards the ground. This doesn't hit the reflectives on a jacket and in practice don't become highlighted to the driver. Headlights on non-dipped full beam are much better, but if you wander to either side of the beam you soon lose the effect and again fade into the general tapestry of the view. Reflectives really only work if low down (ankle strips) and directly in front of a vehicles lights.

So, dayglo is good during the day. Reflectives are good at night in one direction, provided the light source and driver are in line with the reflective.

What happens at night in an urban environ is that your dayglo just washes out to pale grey, the same as all the street furniture, tarmac, pavements, fences, bushes, cars. Your reflectives are also rendered useless unless directly in the light beam, so actually work as you want them to for a tiny fraction of the time and in limited circumstances.

Sorry for the long winded post but it takes some explaining. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me.

Pin-worthy post 👍
 

Happy_Days

Active Member
Does anyone have a link to any proper peer reviewed data on this ?
The evidence shows we overestimate the benefit of lights, etc. However, we underestimate the benefits of clothing that shows “biomotion”, particularly at night.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36774920/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23542135/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22269563/
 
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BoldonLad

Not part of the Elite
Location
South Tyneside
Its well known that certain demographics are more likely to go for certain shades - my daughter would choose a bright red or yellow, my Dad a sombre silver or beige (yes, they're making cars in beige again), and those different demographics bring their own risks quite separate from the vehicles colour.

It's not as if the average car driver is a homogeneous being distributed evenly across all colours of vehicle. If they were then a simple analysis of accident rates v colours would be revealing. They aren't, and they aren't.

That analysis fails to establish cause to go along with effect. Even M Buzells (whoever they are) hints at their understanding of this towards the end of the piece, which makes the entire article rather moot.

I did say "appears to show", not "shows" or "proves"

Personally, I ride a bicycle, ride a motorcycle and drive a car (not all at the same time). I do observe whilst walking, riding, or driving, that certain combinations are less visible, under certain conditions, eg a black car, or grey car, without lights, is less visible in poor light conditions, similarly, a black clad figure (pedestrian or cyclist) is less visible in dark conditions. This may be why Special Operation personnel are often depicted as being clad in black, including having their faces covered or covered in black/dark colouring. It may, also of course, simply be that such personnel have a preference for black clothing.
 
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MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
...
Personally, I ride a bicycle, ride a motorcycle and drive a car (not all at the same time). I do observe whilst walking, riding, or driving, that certain combinations are less visible, under certain conditions, eg a black car, or grey car, without lights, is less visible in poor light conditions, similarly, a black clad figure (pedestrian or cyclist) is less visible in dark conditions. This may be why Special Operation personnel are often depicted as being clad in black, including having their faces covered or covered in black/dark colouring. It may, also of course, simply be that such personnel have a preference for black clothing.

i believe we're all in agreement that cyclists should have lights after sundown.

Your ninja example doesn't hold water since no one is suggesting anyone rides around wearing dark clothing and no lights.
 

berty bassett

Legendary Member
Location
I'boro
I realise some of the answers on here are just doing a 'Jeremy vine ' and trying to wind people up but come on , showing a picture of a cop car mangled and saying , see - even hi-viz cars get hit , not knowing the circumstances , whether it was trying to save someones life , deliberately put itself in danger to help general public or whatever , also saying wearing dark clothes is just as safe as wearing brightly coloured clothes that make you stand out is laughable . then arguing oh show me the stats every time someone disagrees with the blatantly obvious common sense that the easier you are to be seen , the less likely you are to be hit
I wont be looking for the stats on this next statement but I would think most accidents of cars hitting bikes is because the motorist didnt see the cyclist therefore if cyclists are easier to see then surely it means they are less likely to be hit . I cant see how anyone can argue with that . last time this same argument surfaced I was shouted down by the ' you're just as safe in camouflage as hi-viz' brigade so I will leave it here and say I am wrong for trying to make it easier for others to see me and you are right so it saves you the hassle of showing me the errors of my ways . be safe
 

MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
I realise some of the answers on here are just doing a 'Jeremy vine ' and trying to wind people up but come on , showing a picture of a cop car mangled and saying , see - even hi-viz cars get hit , not knowing the circumstances , whether it was trying to save someones life , deliberately put itself in danger to help general public or whatever , also saying wearing dark clothes is just as safe as wearing brightly coloured clothes that make you stand out is laughable . then arguing oh show me the stats every time someone disagrees with the blatantly obvious common sense that the easier you are to be seen , the less likely you are to be hit
I wont be looking for the stats on this next statement but I would think most accidents of cars hitting bikes is because the motorist didnt see the cyclist therefore if cyclists are easier to see then surely it means they are less likely to be hit . I cant see how anyone can argue with that . last time this same argument surfaced I was shouted down by the ' you're just as safe in camouflage as hi-viz' brigade so I will leave it here and say I am wrong for trying to make it easier for others to see me and you are right so it saves you the hassle of showing me the errors of my ways . be safe

fab. you're not interested in stats or studies... just common sense :wacko:
 

classic33

Leg End Member
A contrasting colour to your background is going to make you stand out more than a bright colour amongst a sea of other bright colours.
 
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