Common sense

[steveindenmark]

Doesn't matter what you wear when you are cycling, as long as you are legal with lights and reflectives at night. If drivers aren't looking properly, then you are in danger.

Thats not correct. of course it matters what you are wearing. There is no point in laying under the wheels of a car and with your dying breath saying "Its not my job to make it easier for him to see me".
I consider myself to be a safe experienced driver. But even with bright, clean lights and screen and travelling at well under the speed limit. At 4.30am it can still be difficult to see the dog walker dressed in black walking his black dog out in the countryside. Or the cyclist with no lights who I passed last week. Lights and reflectors are the bare minimum to be legal on the road. As cyclists we need to take responsibility of our own safety and not leave it soley in the hands of motorists. That means having extra lights and making ourselves more visible. This old chestnut of drivers not paying attention is nonesense. Of course it happens. But some people just use it as an arguement to put their point over.

 

[theclaud]

Thats not correct. of course it matters what you are wearing. There is no point in laying under the wheels of a car and with your dying breath saying "Its not my job to make it easier for him to see me".
I consider myself to be a safe experienced driver. But even with bright, clean lights and screen and travelling at well under the speed limit. At 4.30am it can still be difficult to see the dog walker dressed in black walking his black dog out in the countryside. Or the cyclist with no lights who I passed last week. Lights and reflectors are the bare minimum to be legal on the road. As cyclists we need to take responsibility of our own safety and not leave it soley in the hands of motorists. That means having extra lights and making ourselves more visible. This old chestnut of drivers not paying attention is nonesense. Of course it happens. But some people just use it as an arguement to put their point over.

Emotional nonsense that keeps slipping into more and more responsibility for people who are no risk to others. Just get a grip. If you are throwing a tonne or two of metal around, you need to make sure you don't hit people with it. End of.

 

[Justinslow]

Emotional nonsense that keeps slipping into more and more responsibility for people who are no risk to others. Just get a grip. If you are throwing a tonne or two of metal around, you need to make sure you don't hit people with it. End of.

Let’s just ask the pedestrians out there or infact anyone who’s ever been ridden into by a cyclist if the perpetrators were “no risk to others”
You seem to live in a very one dimensional world, very “them and us”.
It does seem a very stubborn view - “I’m going to wear dark clothes on my bike as it’s not my responsibility to be seen by other road users”.

 

[newfhouse]

I’m going to wear dark clothes on my bike

Me too. Black is cool.

 

[theclaud]

Let’s just ask the pedestrians out there or infact anyone who’s ever been ridden into by a cyclist if the perpetrators were “no risk to others”
You seem to live in a very one dimensional world, very “them and us”.
It does seem a very stubborn view - “I’m going to wear dark clothes on my bike as it’s not my responsibility to be seen by other road users”.

Your OP has nothing to do with the (extremely rare) cases of cyclists injuring pedestrians. It's just part of the traditional winter victim-blaming ritual we perform for the benefit of motorists as they enter peak killing season. Maybe you should start another thread?

 

[Drago]

Let’s just ask the pedestrians out there or infact anyone who’s ever been ridden into by a cyclist if the perpetrators were “no risk to others”
You seem to live in a very one dimensional world, very “them and us”.
It does seem a very stubborn view - “I’m going to wear dark clothes on my bike as it’s not my responsibility to be seen by other road users”.

More pedestrians are killed by cattle than by cyclists - if you asked pedestrians though which of the two is the most dangerous, they'll inevitably say cyclists, despite that demonstrably not being the case.

Perception and reality rarely coincide, which is why one should rely on science to guide you when making a safety related decision, not "common sense", or photoshopped images. In this case science tells us that there is little link between conspicuity and road safety - people are being killed through poor observation, not poor visibility. What little actual research that has been done shows the rate at which hi vis wearers get killed or seriously injured is much the same as for those in regular street attire, and the largest authoritative study in the UK shows no link whatsoever.

The other problem with "common sense" is that it can actually be counter intuitive. It was proven as long ago as the 1980s that over bright lights in normal day time conditions - such as dipped beam headlamps - actually makes one more likely to become involved in an accident, as it deprives the observers brain of the required datum necessary to accurately calculate speed. Yet how may riders do you see riding round in broad daylight with stupid bright lights on in the name of "safety"?

Unless something has been proven to have a road safety benefit, assime it does not - that's the best way to stay alive. Statistically, a rabbits foot in your pocket is as likely to keep you alive as a hi vis. I teach advanced road skills to cyclists and anyone wearing a fluorescent with the "they can see me" attitude will be out on their ear - a rider in normal colours with the "have they seen me?" attitude is the far safer of the two.

 

[Justinslow]

More pedestrians are killed by cattle than by cyclists - if you asked pedestrians though which of the two is the most dangerous, they'll inevitably say cyclists, despite that demonstrably not being the case.

Perception and reality rarely coincide, which is why one should rely on science to guide you when making a safety related decision, not "common sense", or photoshopped images. In this case science tells us that there is little link between conspicuity and road safety - people are being killed through poor observation, not poor visibility. What little actual research that has been done shows the rate at which hi vis wearers get killed or seriously injured is much the same as for those in regular street attire, and the largest authoritative study in the UK shows no link whatsoever.

The other problem with "common sense" is that it can actually be counter intuitive. It was proven as long ago as the 1980s that over bright lights in normal day time conditions - such as dipped beam headlamps - actually makes one more likely to become involved in an accident, as it deprives the observers brain of the required datum necessary to accurately calculate speed. Yet how may riders do you see riding round in broad daylight with stupid bright lights on in the name of "safety"?

Unless something has been proven to have a road safety benefit, assime it does not - that's the best way to stay alive. Statistically, a rabbits foot in your pocket is as likely to keep you alive as a hi vis. I teach advanced road skills to cyclists and anyone wearing a fluorescent with the "they can see me" attitude will be out on their ear - a rider in normal colours with the "have they seen me?" attitude is the far safer of the two.

I don’t think it’s a “they can see me” attitude, more a holistic approach.

 

[steveindenmark]

More pedestrians are killed by cattle than by cyclists - if you asked pedestrians though which of the two is the most dangerous, they'll inevitably say cyclists, despite that demonstrably not being the case.

Perception and reality rarely coincide, which is why one should rely on science to guide you when making a safety related decision, not "common sense", or photoshopped images. In this case science tells us that there is little link between conspicuity and road safety - people are being killed through poor observation, not poor visibility. What little actual research that has been done shows the rate at which hi vis wearers get killed or seriously injured is much the same as for those in regular street attire, and the largest authoritative study in the UK shows no link whatsoever.

The other problem with "common sense" is that it can actually be counter intuitive. It was proven as long ago as the 1980s that over bright lights in normal day time conditions - such as dipped beam headlamps - actually makes one more likely to become involved in an accident, as it deprives the observers brain of the required datum necessary to accurately calculate speed. Yet how may riders do you see riding round in broad daylight with stupid bright lights on in the name of "safety"?

Unless something has been proven to have a road safety benefit, assime it does not - that's the best way to stay alive. Statistically, a rabbits foot in your pocket is as likely to keep you alive as a hi vis. I teach advanced road skills to cyclists and anyone wearing a fluorescent with the "they can see me" attitude will be out on their ear - a rider in normal colours with the "have they seen me?" attitude is the far safer of the two.

You raise some interesting points. The main one is dont wear this jersey when cycling. It can only lead to a bad end.

 

[MontyVeda]

Popped up on my Facebook feed, I’ll just leave it here.


View attachment 492862

This was my retort when it appeared on my FB feed...


I'd rather whoever's driving that car doesn't mount the pavement... the child in both pictures is perfectly safe where they are, and once they're crossing the road, they'll be just as visible as those trees and everything else that isn't lemon coloured. Sorry, but if people can drive black cars, I can wear a black coat. This is just transferring responsibility away from those who really should be paying attention to their surroundings, those being the folks driving huge dangerous hunks of metal around.

 

[MontyVeda]

You are right. If they are driving like a twonker it makes no difference what you are wearing. But high viz and reflective gear does get you seen earlier by those not driving like a twonker. As a cyclist I have no control over how people drive But I can make it as easier for drivers to see me.

isn't it around this time of year we get all the 'just seen a cyclist dressed all in black with no lights' posts?

 

[Justinslow]

An interesting aside...
My local club now enforces both front and rear lights must be fitted and working to be allowed to compete in the clubs TT events (these events are not held in darkness) no one seems to have a problem with this.
Bright clothing/sninsuits are recommended but not yet mandatory, although dark attire is very much frowned apon.

 

[Poacher]

An interesting aside...
My local club now enforces both front and rear lights must be fitted and working to be allowed to compete in the clubs TT events (these events are not held in darkness) no one seems to have a problem with this.
Bright clothing/sninsuits are recommended but not yet mandatory, although dark attire is very much frowned apon.

I bet they insist on helmets as well.

 

[Justinslow]

I bet they insist on helmets as well.

Surprisingly I don’t think they do, but that’s for another thread....

 

[steveindenmark]

isn't it around this time of year we get all the 'just seen a cyclist dressed all in black with no lights' posts?

No I post them throughout the year. But I ride in the dark more than most.

 

[theclaud]

An interesting aside...
My local club now enforces both front and rear lights must be fitted and working to be allowed to compete in the clubs TT events (these events are not held in darkness) no one seems to have a problem with this.
Bright clothing/sninsuits are recommended but not yet mandatory, although dark attire is very much frowned apon.

How deeply uncool.

I've been working late a lot recently and the moon has been full and bright for my ride home. I've been turning my front light off for the ride along the seafront to enjoy it. There are no streetlights. I can see everything much better than when I'm coming home at a busy commuting time with oncoming cyclists' and runners way-too-bright headlights in my face. Lighting levels need to come down.